It’s Getting Weird Up in Here

Anti-polygamy activist blames Utah-Arizona inaction for Texas raid — Salt Lake Tribune

I’m drawing a blank on titles for posts about this story. Best lines from this one:

“Jessop said one girl told her ‘The men own the babies, not the mothers.’”

Question: Does anybody know if there are beds in Mormon Temples for any reason? I never saw any, nor did the LDS Temple ceremony require a bed.

I’m wondering if wives are passed around from man to man in order to keep the women subservient? It’s not just polygamy; it’s polyamory. And that gets sicker when kids are involved. Utah is slowly waking up to these notions. Thanks for showing the way, Texas!

UPDATE: If any readers want to assist the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services, click here for information.

UPDATE 2: The Houston Chronicle has a great piece up on the challenges facing the social workers, including, surprise! those timid 19th century prairie-clothed women being less than cooperative. Big Love is going to have a rich source to mine from.

  • ams

    I have a friend who is a temple worker at the Salt Lake Temple, and was kind enough to give me a tour a year ago. No beds in sight, and it was a really thorough tour. Of course, it’s a big building, but I’ve been attending the temple for many years and have never heard even a rumor about any sex-based ceremonies.

  • http://www.conversiondiary.com/ Jennifer (Et Tu?)

    Wow, thanks for the link to that Houston Chronicle article. Very insightful. It is so disturbing to get a glimpse into the brainwashing process. I thought this part was particularly fascinating (in a bad way):

    “They were told we were the evil people,” recalled Bobby Gilliam, president of Methodist Children’s Home in Waco, the foster care home that took in 20 of the 21 Branch Davidian children. He remembers how the heart rates of the children were 30 percent to 40 percent higher than normal because of their anxiety.

    I was actually just in Waco last week for a funeral and was thinking about that. What a sad story.

  • http://www.burntoutlightbulb.blogspot.com Ariel

    Ya– I was LDS for MANY years and never saw a bed or heard of such a thing…
    So sick.

  • http://twitter.com/Leesavee Leesavee

    I can’t quite get past that phrase, “The men own the babies, not the mothers.” Wow.

    As a non-Mormon, I can assure all of you that as someone who keeps up with the news and has some ability to reason, I know that this isn’t behavior condoned by the LDS Church or its leaders (or the vast majority of its followers). The news reports and commentaries I’ve been seeing about this tragic story have been quite clear that this isn’t LDS, but a freakish off-shoot. Granted, I live in Maine, and the lead story a few days ago on the local news was about two wild turkeys getting into a fight on the side of the Maine turnpike. But I really do think that most people are able to make the distinction between these evil people putting girls into sexual slavery under the guise of religion and normal Mormons.

  • Alyce

    I didn’t even think of the polyamory angle until you mentioned it. I was thinking more that since the sexual act wasn’t consensual, that the forcible rape required the community (of men) to either hold her down, or just show by their presence that this was expected.

    I wouldn’t think that they’d want their pressssshus piece of underage meat soiled by another man, so polyamory seems unlikely. Also, I guess I don’t think of these pedophiles as being fond of safe sex, and how else would they know who the father of the baby is if more than one man raped your wife.

  • http://www.montanajen.typepad.com MontanaJen

    I must disagree slightly with Alyce…the members of the polygamist ‘family’ are working for the highest afterlife for their leader, and then for the brothers (husbands). Having a wife, any wife, breed for one of the family would help the leader and the brother, but the greater family would be assisted as well. The wife passing for breeding/working doesn’t surprise me a bit. The ‘purity’ of the woman is only important until her virginity is taken by her husband. After that, she can be given.

    This is truly fascinating stuff. I am watching in horror from up here, and hoping that any sort of normalcy can be given to these poor children and women.

  • http://blurbomat.com blurb

    @Alyce, I was referring to wives being re-assigned to other husbands at the whim of the leadership.

    “Unrighteous” men are stripped of their wives all the time in the FLDS world.

  • KariEvans

    From what i gathered from talking to a few women from the ranch, wives are moved from one husband to another if it was deamed that another man was more “worthy” than the current husband. When we were at the ranch going from house to house i noticed that most of the women had a lot of suitcases. I found that kind of strange considering most of the residents of the ranch have not been off the ranch since arriving 3 or 4 years ago. The impression we got was those were what they pack all of their belongings in when they were moved to different husbands, which apparently happened often. Most of the houses only had one husband and then all of his wives and children, so they would move to a totally different home.

  • http://twitter.com/Leesavee Leesavee

    Thanks, Jon, et. al., for this discussion. I’m learning far more from all of you than from the news. I do appreciate it.

  • http://seeginablog.com Gina

    I would like to make note that polyamory is most definitely not the same as polygamy. Polyamory does not involve the unwilling, vulnerable, and underaged.

  • http://blurbomat.com blurb

    @Gina, couldn’t you make the same argument about polygamy? That it doesn’t involve the unwilling, vulnerable and underaged?

    None of this is supposed to happen. I think a better set if terms might be closer to “sex slavery” or “sexual objectification”.

    I think we all agree that what is going on with the FLDS and other sects is eally wrong, really messed up and damnable.

    I’m not trying to dis polyamory or polygamy. I’ve stated before that between consenting adults, whatever floats it. I’d love to see the stigma lifted off of polygamy so that we can focus on the real issue here: multi-generational patterns of control and abuse.

  • http://www.montanajen.typepad.com MontanaJen

    “I’d love to see the stigma lifted off of polygamy so that we can focus on the real issue here: multi-generational patterns of control and abuse.”

    In the great words of the Fonz, “exactamundo”.

  • http://www.heathersgarden.typepad.com Heather’s Garden

    Have to echo MonatanJen — exactamundo. I really don’t care what 2 consenting adults do behind closed doors, or 3 or 4 for that matter. But these poor young women are brainwashed from birth and are incapable of meeting the definition of consenting adult. The young men raised in these communities are just as damaged and are often driven out as teens and left to fend for themselves so they do not present competition for the older men seeking young wives. It is disgusting that this child abuse has been taking place under the guise of religious freedom for so long.

    I feel silly making this suggestion, but if you haven’t read Under the Banner of Heaven you should. Growing up Catholic in the Northeast I knew little about the LDS or FLDS and found the U.S. history alone that Krakauer shares eye-opening. We shouldn’t be surprised that the LDS is such an insular secretive organization, they have good reason to be.

  • Alyce

    Thanks for the info, Jen and Jon. Enlightening and yet still as disgusting as ever.

  • KariEvans

    “I’d love to see the stigma lifted off of polygamy so that we can focus on the real issue here: multi-generational patterns of control and abuse.”

    I totally agree!!

    I know we weren’t there because of polygamy. We were there because this place is engaging in organized child exploitation and abuse all along trying to play it off as religion.

    If you want to practice polygamy with concenting adults, more power to you. But the second you decide a 13 year old should be your newest wife, you cross the line. Besides i would argue most of the adult women there arent capable of being concenting adults. They have been under such control for so long i cant imagine they are able to see through all of their fear and make decisions for themselves

  • http://breathingbreathingbreathing.blogspot.com Moss

    Consent can be such a tricky concept. There are clear legal standards about age of consent and mental capacity for consent, but the comment above noting that grown women may be incapable of consent due to their upbringing seems to imply that cultural/social factors can also play into a person’s objective ability to consent.

    As one who lived in a queer polyamorous family for most of my twenties, I appreciate the comments above that polyamory inherently excludes the unwilling or coerced. (And as a slightly-but not entirely– tongue-in-cheek response, it *might* be polyamory if the wives got to choose who their next husband(s) would be and/or if the sister-wives were getting it on with each other … )

    Bottom line: the abuse that goes on in isolated communities as well as in urban centers, in often-religious-based insular groups requires the light of day and public scrutiny. Secrecy, even/especially when “designed” to protect so-called sacred rituals, is usually toxic.

    (And although I’m not practicing polyamory anymore, it was great relationship training and has made me a much better monogamous partner to my girlfriend now. Communication skills practiced and learned in healthy relationships of all stripes are invaluable.)

  • http://redhotmamma.blogstpot.com heather angele

    Unfortunately, I don’t think raids are ultimately what will put a stop to this kind of thing (if it’s even possible at all). I think to shut down the FLDS, you’ve got to get at them financially. What I want to know is what businesses and products Jeffs’ sick empire is associated with so I know what to boycott. The reports mention a cheese factory and a cement factory on the YFZ compound. Were these factories producing goods sold outside the compound? I wonder what else is out there.

    I am really interested to see how any civil liberties challenges play out here. Does being a religious nutburger give you the right to rape 12 year-old girls and beat them up? No. And I cannot imagine the court that would place religious freedom above the well-being of children.

  • Leta

    You know, I feel really weird saying this, especially in a public space, but God bless Texas. Seriously. Flora Jessop is right when she says that Utah and Arizona didn’t do enough. Although it’s interesting that they (UT-AZ) managed to wrest control of enough of FLDS’s finances that they forced them into Texas, which isn’t part of the Jello Belt and therefore not as likely, I guess, to tolerate rape and child abuse under the guise of religion.

    As for the whole “consenting adult” issue: minors cannot give consent, their parents/guardians must do it for them. So if a 13 year old’s parents force her to consent to a marriage, that is, tacitly, legal. So it’s confusing.

    Maybe the answer isn’t to strengthen stat rape laws, but change “age of consent” issues so that minors ARE allowed to give consent? I dunno, legally this is tough call.

    To be perfectly honest, I don’t give a shit about the civil rights of predatory perverts. I do, however, worry about the precedent that’s set in cases like this. Don’t misunderstand, I think Warren Jeffs and his little feifdom are totally fucked up, and if what they are doing is not illegal, we need to make sure it somehow becomes illegal.

    But on the other hand, I don’t think that unconvential family structure is a good enough reason to take someone’s kids away– I’d hate to see a loving, non-abusive, poly family (Big Love?) get tarred by the same brush that the FLDS has.

    Because that’s the thing: I don’t have a problem with the consenting-adult variety of polygamy/polyamory, and I don’t have a problem with people choosing to create a subculture that is somewhat removed from mainstream society. I have a problem with child abuse, period, that’s it.

  • KariEvans

    heather angele–

    I am not 100% positive but i believe the cheese and cement factory were used for the ranch only. They did not sell any items outside of the ranch. They were a city of their own. They had a doctor/clinic on the ranch, they also had their own dairy. the huge temple made of limestone was made by the men on the ranch. They even mined the limestone from the land and made the cement wall that surrounded the temple. If you google eldorado texas a link will come up that the citizens of Eldorado made many years ago, it has photos of the ranch as it was built.

  • Shelby

    Do you ever read this blog by the chief photographer of the SLC Tribune? I feel like you would like it.

    http://166.70.44.68/blogs/trent/

  • http://www.kimbanelson.com Kimba

    I’m LDS (aka Mormon) and I can assure you there are no beds in the temple or our churches and that kind of behavior is not is against church policy. Sexual relations are to be between husband and wife, (one wife! We don’t practice polygamy). The FLDS church broke off from the LDS church a long time ago and isn’t conducting itself in the same way with the same standards. I don’t know much about the raid, but know that LDS people are feeling the same way as non-LDS. Terrible, terrible situation.

  • natalie

    um no, there are no beds in the temple. jon, you’ve been there, and served a mission, so i’m surprised you felt you needed to ask.

  • http://blurbomat.com blurb

    @natalie, maybe there’s a secret room or something?

    It’s been a long long time since I’ve been inside a Mormon temple. Stuff is always changing, so I did feel compelled to ask.