Mormons Hate Gay People

SALT LAKE CITY - APRIL 3: Boyd Packer, President of the Mormon Quorum of the Twelve Apostles speaks in the opening session at the 180th Annual General Conference of the church April 3, 2010 in Salt Lake City, Utah. Packer is the next on line to replace Monson as head of the church upon Monson's death. Thousands of members of the Mormon Church gathered at the event to hear guidance from church leaders. (Photo by George Frey/Getty Images)

To all my LDS friends: When a senior member of the governing body of your church professes hatred, you’re gonna be lumped in. Don’t like it? Do something about it.

This is some crazy bullshit:
Apostle: Same-sex attraction can change | The Salt Lake Tribune
(via @sltrib )

p.s. How about that URL?

Right at the top:

“There are those today who not only tolerate but advocate voting to change laws that would legalize immorality, as if a vote would somehow alter the designs of God’s laws and nature,” Boyd K. Packer, president of the church’s Quorum of Twelve Apostles, said in a strongly worded sermon about the dangers of pornography and same-sex marriage. “A law against nature would be impossible to enforce. Do you think a vote to repeal the law of gravity would do any good?”

To counter Mr. Packer, here’s an interesting story about researching the gay gene:

Fourteen years later, neither Bocklandt nor any other researcher has pinpointed the precise base pairs that might turn a man gay. Part of this is due to the politics of funding for sex research. For a long period NIH grant proposals that included words like “gay,” “condom,” or even “sexuality” were turned down, much to the ire of researchers like Hamer. Shortly after he published his gay brothers study, Hamer completed a similarly designed family study looking into a genetic cause for a certain kind of anxiety. Since then there have been more than 400 independent studies looking into those genes. There have been no such studies for the gay gene.

This “sermon” is from the same guy that gave the world the most awesome anti-masturbation speech in history. It is contained in the pamphlet, “To Young Men Only.” To anybody that says this is a manufactured or made up story. I was THERE when Packer gave the speech. At that time, I had not seen Annie Hall and could not tell Packer “don’t knock my hobbies”.

On a serious note, if you are an LDS member who is gay, might be gay or have a family member who is gay, visit affirmation.org. Click here to read their response to the Packer speech. They bring up a really good point (especially with the kinds of stories making the news of late), that speech of this kind is dangerous:

“Words have consequences, particularly when they come from a faith leader. This is exactly the kind of statement that can lead some kids to bully and others to commit suicide,” said Joe Solmonese, president of HRC. “When a faith leader tells gay people that they are a mistake because God would never have made them that way and they don’t deserve love, it sends a very powerful message that violence and/or discrimination against LGBT people is acceptable. It also emotionally devastates those who are LGBT or may be struggling with their sexual orientation or gender identify. His words were not only inaccurate, they were also dangerous.”

Ellen Degeneres had some words about the culture of bullying and homosexuality (you’ve probably already seen this):

Theories about Packer abound. He’s in line to be the President of the LDS Church. Rumor has it that most of the brethren are terrified that he would ever be allowed to be in that position for the damage he could do to the church. That is a total rumor and I have no source for that information, save idol chatter. They might be all for Packer as president. However, he’s got a history of saying things that push the church hard-right. Here’s a speech he gave at Brigham Young University wherein he told people to marry only those in their same race:

We’ve always counseled in the Church for our Mexican members to marry Mexicans, our Japanese members to marry Japanese, our Caucasians to marry Caucasians, our Polynesian members to marry Polynesians. The counsel has been wise. You may say again, “Well, I know of exceptions.” I do, too, and they’ve been very successful marriages. I know some of them. You might even say, “I can show you local Church leaders or perhaps even general leaders who have married out of their race.” I say, “Yes–exceptions.” Then I would remind you of that Relief Society woman’s near-scriptural statement, “We’d like to follow the rule first, and then we’ll take care of the exceptions.”

I was born in the same city as Mr. Packer. He is/was revered there by LDS church members.

  • http://www.blessourhearts.blogspot.com Ms. Moon

    I read a book a long time ago and cannot remember the name or author’s name but it was written by a former Mormon woman who had married a homosexual man who was also Mormon. The man knew he was homosexual and had been counseled by the church to marry a woman and pray, pray, pray. For some time, the marriage, on the surface, was okay. They had kids. They did love each other. The woman had believed the teachings of the church that with prayer and love, her husband’s “deviant” desires would eventually fade away.
    Of course they did not and eventually there was a divorce- a tragic ending in LDS belief, of course, and well, it got worse.
    I’ll never forget that book and the message I got from it was that when a religion tries to tell people that god can change who they are if they believe strongly enough, the only result can be tragedy- whether personal or for a family or…
    Who knows?
    WHY DO PEOPLE ALLOW OTHER PEOPLE TO TELL THEM WHAT GOD WANTS?
    I will never understand this.
    Good post.

  • patatomic

    I’m surprised it took you this long to post. I’ve been waiting …

    First of all, all this reversed out text is hard on my eyes. You should rethink if you’re editorializing.

    Second, anything written by Peggy Fletcher Stack should be in the opinion section (probably more ExMo that you and Heather combined, if that’s possible).

    Third, I’m not sure what I can do about this. Prop 8 has been overturned and the issue is dead, as far as I’m concerned. Over the years I’ve cringed at some of the things I’ve heard from Packer as well as have been inspired by what I’ve heard him say. Judging by his condition on Sunday, I’ll be surprised if he’s around this time next year.

    So what, quit? Throw out the proverbial baby with the bath water? I don’t think so.

    Fourth, I take serious issue with this comment:
    “When a faith leader tells gay people that they are a mistake because God would never have made them that way and they don’t deserve love, it sends a very powerful message that violence and/or discrimination against LGBT people is acceptable.”

    Mistake? They don’t deserve love? Total exaggeration of the facts, bordering on a flat out lie. Read the talk Jon. Read the talk. The language is strong, but this goes above and beyond the facts.

    Fifth, I’m too busy to reply so feel free to go off on my comments but don’t expect a reply and/or battle.

    • http://blurbomat.com blurb

      I’ve been thinking about a category based stylesheet that keeps the site black text on white and then switches to reversed for the images. Too busy to mess right now, but that’s on the list.

      @patatomic I’m not looking for a battle. I’m looking for a conversation. You can argue the facts of the talk that Mr. Packer gave. Go right ahead. But I think that the results of the talk will be more misunderstanding, more bigotry, less tolerance and an overt encouragement for people to discriminate against other humans. Others agree with me. I did read the words Packer used. Calling somebody born gay “immoral” is not helping anybody get closer to anything other than bigotry. It’s divisive speech. And misguided. Prop 8 is far from settled. It will be appealed (it already has) and make its way up to the Supreme Court. Where, we hope, Mr. Obama has a chance to seat another justice.

      My point in sharing this is that I get asked a lot about tolerance in Utah. Mr. Packer’s sermon moved that discussion back 30 years. It’s too bad, but he’s a nutter. In 20 years, this will be one of those moments that we look back on and shake our heads over. How many more parents will lose their gay LDS children to suicide before the church learns that the prejudicial language it uses has deadly results? How many deaths is enough? 10? 20? In my view, one is too many. One.

      I’m open.

      p.s. Congrats on the new baby!

      • patatomic

        And what about this:
        http://is.gd/fLgcY

        • http://blurbomat.com blurb

          I would say that Packer crapped all over any kind of good that may have come from Mr. Jensen’s efforts.

          • patatomic

            But why wasn’t this news?

      • patatomic

        I can’t defend the talk. Don’t want to.

        I sincerely regret this notion that “Mormons Hate Gay People”. That just isn’t true. What set me off was the line about those who are gay “don’t deserve love”. Quite the contrary.

        • http://blurbomat.com blurb

          What good is going to come from a sermon like that? How much blood will be on the hands of Packer? The LDS church? This sermon accomplishes no good that can be seen by society at large.

          Very sad.

        • Joanne

          Yes, Jon, let’s have a conversation.

          The talk was irresponsible at best. Some countries in Africa consider homosexuality a crime, others are looking to criminalize it. There is a growing LDS population in Africa. We can only imagine the potential harm this speech can have in that and other counties where the LDS church is growing. My husband happens to be like you, also concerned about our LGBT community and the message that President Packer (deliberately or not) sent to them regarding their worth.

          But Jon, when President Packer speaks, do you expect anything different? Seriously, your outrage at his talk is a little bit surprising to me. He is what he is. And yes, there are SOME who agree with what he says, but believe me, there are others who don’t.

          Also, implicit in your statement to “do something about it” is the assumption that devout Mormons are not doing anything about this mindset. Actually, we are. And I think you know devout members who are, so why do you not at least talk about their efforts?

          Have you seen 8: The Mormon Proposition? I’m sure you have. Well, I happen to be close friends with the housewife from Hawaii that they talked about at the beginning of the movie. She was a major player in the anit-same sex marriage campaign in Hawaii some years ago (1991?). What I took issue with in the documentary is not the fact that they talked about her involvement but the fact that this same woman was a leading lobbyist this year in passing a strong civil unions law (that was vetoed by the conservative governor) in the state of Hawaii. AND THE DOCUMENTARY IGNORED THAT. She’s been an advocate for gay rights for the last decade, Jon. She changed since the early 90′s. She’s still a very active member of the church and very active politically, but her stand on the issue changed.

          And I can’t help but wonder why when you take on the ignorance of LDS leaders and policies that you also you tend to ignore the fact that there are many LDS around the world that have changed or are working to make changes in the mindset of its members?

          Also, patatomic (cool name and congrats on your baby), I do think the title of this post was an appropriate one because the talk was embarrassing and evoked that sentiment. We hate gays. Pleasant, isn’t it? In my opinion, we have to sit with the fact that this is the exact message President Packer sent and “take our medicine” for his divisive remarks. If the medicine comes in the form of an eyesore post (no offense, jon :) ), then so be it. We deserve the bad press.

          • http://blurbomat.com blurb

            Why are my expectations about Packer at issue for you?

            Mormons aren’t doing enough about it. How about that instead?

            I can’t speak to the film. Haven’t seen it, yet.

            The headline stands. The church has blood on its hands. A lot of blood.

            • Joanne

              “Mormons aren’t doing enough about it”? I just cited an LDS woman who was at the forefront for gay rights legislation in Hawaii. Have you lobbied in the state of Utah for gay rights?

              Also, Heather, I have more to say about your response. There are cultural issues surrounding the “twists and turns” of how members navigate through LDS leadership to make change, but I’ve gotta work. Also, paradox ties in nicely here. This same LDS church who has a long history of bigotry is also the church that were first to respond in Haiti and Indonesia and Chili and NOLA and Tennessee. Is my grammar even right in that last sentence? It’s the first to go when I’m in a hurry. . .

  • http://www.rageagainsttheminivan.com/ rageagainsttheminivan.com/

    I think this is one of the most concerning aspects of the Mormon church. As a Christian, when someone says something hateful, it doesn’t reflect on my beliefs. I can interpret the bible for myself, and I can distance myself from bigotted people because there is no hierarchy that says they speak for me. In the mormon church, it seems like everyone is subject to their leaders, and I see very little public dissent for stuff like this. I truly wonder if there will ever be a younger generation of mormons who break off and form a more autonomous faith – or if they will just end up leaving altogether because there is no room for independent thinking.

    The “sticking to your own kind” stuff? That is horrifying.

  • http://www.dooce.com dooce

    To patatomic and Joanne,

    I think Jon uses such exaggerated rhetoric because there is no other way to get through to Mormons. Because if you believe your faith to be true, then what Elder Packer said in his speech was inspired by God. IT IS THE WORD OF YOUR GOD. Therefore, it is your faith to believe that homosexuality is immoral. Period. No getting around it. You do not get to disagree with it, otherwise you’re saying that Elder Packer is not inspired by God. PERIOD.

    Also, in your link, Pat, Elder Jensen may have apologized, but he did not renounce the Church’s involvement in Prop 8 or its stance on homosexuality. It was merely an, I’m sorry you were hurt. Kind gesture, but it doesn’t mean that Mormons now accept homosexuality as being biological.

    So you can say all you want about “doing something about it,” but all that means is you’re doing twists and turns and total flips of denial. Your God denounces homosexuality. Period.

    How can you believe in that God? Because everything else he says makes sense? Everything except that?

    • patatomic

      I think what I’ve gained out of this “dialogue” is that Jon’s talents for writing shocking headlines would be well served at Fox News.

      Go get ‘em stud.

      Seriously Heather? No other way to get through? Instead of immediately pissing people off how about a conversation? Although that’d be a waste of time I’m sure as both sides won’t be budging any time soon on this matter. This topic is emotional enough. No need to pile on. And as the saying goes, you get more flies with sugar than vinegar (or something like that).

      As far as the “Word Of God” goes … I don’t absorb too deeply unless I see a letter from the First Presidency. THAT to me, is “The Word Of God”.

      Suffice it to say that I am more happy than I knew existed living the gospel. The joy and peace that I constantly feel is incredible. I honestly can’t recall the last bad day that I’ve had, despite all the death, loss, trials, etc. that has come my way over the last few years.

      I know that this is hard for some to accept but I live my life guided largely by my feelings and instincts (ie. the Spirit). There have been countless times where that trumps logic, but I follow and do regardless and the payoff has been huge.

      K…I’m done. I’d rather be your friend than continue a pointless thread.

      • http://blurbomat.com blurb

        I’m happy you feel good being a member of the LDS church. I hope all of my friends are happy with their choice to worship or not worship how they see fit.

        I’m not happy you resorted to ad hominem attacks for expressing our opinions and beliefs. I’m not saying Packer is an evil man. I’m saying his words are hateful. He leads a church. This post is less about my opinion of Packer than it is what I fear will be the results of his choice of words.

        Heather stated the always unspoken in these types of conversations; which is why my Fox News worthy headline was used. I wanted to provoke a conversation about the nature of Mormon authority and the power and responsibilities that come with it. It’s one thing to participate in an organization you agree with on most issues. It’s another to be complicit in denying rights, creating a culture of hate feeding on the worst part of human ignorance and labeling a class of people “immoral”. Packer doesn’t get a pass because he is old. He gets pilloried because his views are counter to the laws of the country he lives in.

        Heather was right to bring up the notion that LDS members are bound by promises to view the church leadership as conduits of God. This conduit of God just spewed ignorance and hate to millions of people who belong to the church he is a leader of. Packer just planted the seeds of bigotry in how many minds? Gave them reason to treat somebody else as “immoral”. You know as well as I do, that bullying in Utah schools isn’t just about jock/nerd/outcast/looks/weight/social skills. Religion plays into it as well. And this is where the biggest issue of immorality resides. Packer is adding fuel to the bully fires. The only immoral I see here is that Packer is complicit in any gay LDS suicide as are the silent leaders at his side. And that, my friend, saddens me deeply.

        I am happy and proud to be your friend. What kind of conversation were you hoping for? I was hoping for more LDS folks to say that I’m right. But I know that’s a losing proposition. :-)

  • meegs1982

    I hate the fundamentally flawed logic that comes out in this fight so often… “There are those today who not only tolerate but advocate voting to change laws that would legalize immorality, as if a vote would somehow alter the designs of God’s laws and nature”
    The law of the US =/= the mormon God’s law.

    And again, “A law against nature would be impossible to enforce. Do you think a vote to repeal the law of gravity would do any good?”
    The laws of man =/= the laws of nature.
    Gravity doesn’t exist because we say it does, so a man mad law would do nothing for or against it.

    Just as a law saying homosexuality is right or wrong, in the end, does nothing to change the fact that there are men who love men and women who love women. All it would do is say that the US is in the business of legislating acceptance instead of intolerance (yeah, thats *all*).

  • UtahMom58

    Thank you Jon and Heather for supporting gay rights. I hope to see you at City Creek Park on Thursday evening to support our GLBT family and friends.

    Awesome article and links.

    Thank you!

  • http://www.dooce.com dooce

    I did not nor do discount the good that the LDS church does, or the comfort and happiness that it brings to its members. The community around the church is extraordinary, and its humanitarian work is in places unparalleled. But the Catholic Church and many Episcopalian Churches and Lutheran Churches bring their members the same peace and do just as much good.

    However, that good doesn’t mean it should get away with the bigotry it at times spews. This is one of those times. And the problem is, you cannot publicly buck up against this type of talk or make too much noise unless you want to risk apostasy. He is an apostle. You think the LDS church would let him get up and say awful shit about black people? No. (not anymore, at least) Then why is it letting him say shit about homosexuality? Because that’s what the church stands behind.

    If you are a Mormon who wants to reach the highest level of Heaven, this is what you have to believe. That’s at the crux of this whole dilemma. As a Mormon you cannot pick and choose what you do and do not agree with, not if you want to make it to the celestial kingdom where you will share a husband.

    THIS IS THE DOCTRINE YOU BELIEVE. And as long as you pay tithing to this organization, you are supporting movements such as Prop 8 and the bigotry behind it. You cannot twist your way out of this.

    I have never felt such peace OUTSIDE of the church. You may call it the Spirit, I call it learning and wisdom and intuition. And I would never believe in a God who would inspire an apostle of a church to get in front of its millions of members to say that homosexuality is not biological.

    That is just total and utter bullshit.

    • Joanne

      Heather,
      I wasn’t suggesting that all the good that churches do should give license to the bigoted things their leaders do and say.
      I was responding to this statment of yours:
      “How can you believe in that God? Because everything else he says makes sense? Everything except that?’
      I can believe in that God because I’m fine with living in paradox. Almost every conflict we have in our lives can be rooted in resisting dialects. I’m fine with accepting the good and changing the bad in my church.

      Also, who are you to tell me that I cannot pick and choose what I do and do not agree with? That’s a cultural difference in how we were raised. Maybe our families emphasized different things in our homes, I don’t know. But I have seen and still do see leaders debating and arguing with each other. They just do it in private. And just because people don’t do it in a way that you feel like they should, doesn’t mean their way is wrong. A lot of people find that going public and being aggressive is counter-productive to authentic change.

    • UtahMom58

      Thank you, Heather, for your eloquent and intelligent insight on this extremely important topic. I completely agree with you and appreciate your comments very much.

      Or — yeah — what Dooce said!

  • http://aredeaf.blogspot.com Coelecanth

    Huh, as a card* carrying “new” atheist I’m not at all impressed by Jon’s headline. He could have been a lot more confrontational than that. Take a gander at PZ Myers post on the same topic:

    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/10/elder_packer_poll.php

    Sure PZ’s headline lacks punch but the text is far more blunt, and if you’re easily offended for Jebus’ sake don’t read the comments.

    You see, being polite has it’s place but as a means for promoting actual change it’s remarkably ineffective. This is the only thing that’s new about new atheism: a complete unwillingness to be deferential to batshit crazy folk exposing hateful bronze-age doctrines. There’s even some evidence that a confrontational strategy will work. The KKK isn’t the force it once was because decades of open mockery of their ridiculous beliefs and practices created a climate wherein they could no longer function with impunity.

    Statements like Jon’s headline are necessary because they force Mormons who don’t hate gay folk to defend themselves. Of course not all Mormon’s are homophobic, but most don’t speak out about it. And that’s what’s needed to drag the LDS into the 21st century: the rank and file publicly dissenting with the bigots in charge.

    *Okay, it’s actually an old receipt for a KitKat and a Pepsi-Max that I wrote “Atheist” on the back of. I’m still waiting for my real card and the secret handshake instructions…