Our Stage is Your Stage
December 2nd, 2004I remember Biohazard saying something about how they were willing to share the stage with the kids in the pit. This was in the early 1990s when they were opening for Fishbone. Before I talk about the main topic at hand i.e, my point in posting, I’m going to tell you a story about Fishbone and drummers, which has nothing to do with anything, except that drummers kick ass.
My friend Pat is a dope drummer. If only he were, as Clem Snide suggest, half-Jewish… Anyway, Pat goes backstage, pre-show to mingle with Fishbone when they were together and touring and before all the crazy kidnapping and whatnot. Pat approaches the drummer for Fishbone and asks him if he uses any computer aid or drum machine aid for the insane kick drumgasm at the end of “Servitude” off of Give a Monkey a Brain and He’ll…. The dude from Fisbone told him hell no. I arrive at the show and ask Pat if he got to talk to the band. He says yes and that he had indeed asked the drummer about the craziness with the feet and the drums and that he, Pat was referred to in a vernacular that might be less than vaguely Oedipal in nature. Nevertheless, we enjoyed the show. After Fishbone finished “Servitude” in their set, the drummer leapt off his seat, ran to the lead mic and said, “That was for the motherfucker who accused me of using a drum machine.” I looked at Pat. He looked at me. I gave him the thumbs up and did the “I’m laughing knowingly at the band’s hijinks” head nod. Let it be known that the drummer indeed did not use a drum machine and pulled off 128th notes with his feet.
Now we discuss the topic at hand, e.g, Biohazard, anarchy and post-modernism. Or just how weird people are when they are offered the stage. Or an open comment form.
In reading popular personal sites, especially those with hundreds of commenters, there is a kind of comment hijack that occurs. It’s less about trolls or whatever, but very similar to stage diving. At some shows the people waiting to stage dive outnumbered the band by double and the band could barely function, because they were dodging fans. As a person who wants to see the band, but doesn’t feel a need to stage dive, it sucks because the band I came to see is in danger of being trod upon by the stage divers. It’s awfully dadaist when the audience takes over (but not in a sing-along kind of way) and destroys the performance of the artist, so maybe it’s a dadaist hijacking of comments that I’m referring to. And you only see it once the comments hit a hundred or more. At some point, it becomes impossible to track the comments, and by god, you have to comment, and pretty soon, you’re in line to stage dive, knocking the bass player over and forcing the band to cover for her.
At any rate, there are stage divers/commentors, dadaists and kick ass drummers all converging and submitting and essentially drowning out the original voice of the artist. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. However, as a student of both post-modernism and post-post-modernism, at what point does the artist even matter, except for providing the event from which the audience may take over?
I’m not saying that it’s evil or anything like that. It’s just a thing that happens that’s nutty. And all I’m saying is that the comments area is kind of the equivalent to Biohazard saying, “Our stage is your stage, man.” o
128th notes with his feet?
Awesome
rest assured that the original artist is WAY more interesting than the stage diving, though. every time.
Dude…what you forgot to mention is that they played the song FASTER than what they did on the album. And my original question that I asked him was if it was all one live take. Somehow he misunderstood what I was asking. Boy did I feel stupid. Now he drums for Justin Timberlake. I doubt that I’ll get a chance to hang out backstage with him again.
James Brown’s brilliance was that he was the one to organize the party that became the music. The musicians would be playing and then James would walk into the room and add his thing and then boom…the magic was finally synthesized. Of course James took all the credit (financial and otherwise) and never fully credited his musicians who did all the work. Kind of a sad really.
I definitely have to concur with you on the whole drummers being awesome thing. How do they keep up their stamina - how do they do a freaking show like that? Especially drummers for punk bands where the drum rhythm is huge fast.
And I totally agree with becky; you’re the inspiration!
Over the last two or three days, I’ve come to VERY CLEARLY understand why some artists shut down the stage divers. Wow.
So, It would be bad to change the subject now?
Interesting analogy. I was thinking of this very topic recently. Are the obsessive commentors attempting to achieve some sort of Warholian fame-by-association? Coolness by proximity? or is it merely a case where seeing your name/comments on the internet endows you with a sense of fame, importance or relevance?
Whatever the case, it DOES all get a little nutty. And from a sociological point of view, I think it’s pretty fascinating. For example, look at Dooce.com. Don’t get me wrong. I’m a huge fan of your wife’s site. I think she’s cool, intelligent, and a great writer. But the enormity of her fan base frightens me. Sometimes I think she could post a photo of Chuck’s poop and she would get 300 comments. Is that what you meant by the hijacking of comments? (Because I always thought it was just that people wanted to be closer to the drummer.)
Great entry.
Man - I’ve been trying to define what’s been bugging me about seeing a certain open comment forum sort of spin out of control recently, and what you wrote absolutely nailed it. Excellent perspective, and definite food for thought.
Hmmm… point taken.
Well, before I go… I thought (and I am new to this whole blogging thing) people who had blogs wanted comments. I really did. I thought we were all helping. But if not, that’s cool. I don’t need to comment. I comment because it’s fun. It really is. I’m sorry it has taken away from the artist, because I really don’t think that was the intention of all the commenters. The intention was to build up the artist. And become a community. Which to me is the greatest compliment to the person writing the blog.
Thanks Jon. I’m sure those persons were well intended but it started to actually deter others as it left off the original subject matter.
Good point - and Johns analogy is very appropriate… sometimes the post flooding can make comments seem very irratic.
Wouldn’t it be great to aquire some kind of queuing or comment lock system like mySQL has… a first click first post thingy! All posts are held in a queue till the poster in front has clicked submit!?!?!
Interesting post, I was thinking about the very same thing this morning as I have just begun the whole blogging thing after being a “long time blog reader (first-time commenter)”.
I guess it’s a matter of context and relevance, as a new blogger I relish the few comments I get, but they are generally related to our posts. However, if I go to see a band/artist in an intimate setting nothing pisses me off more than people talking over the top of the act, it’s not what you made the effort to go out/visit for. However, with friends and family in new bands, I know they relish people coming up to them quietly after the show with positive feedback, however they do feel weird about groupies. I guess this is where the balance lies.
Sorry if this was too long, delete as you will, may post with trackback instead on my blog.
Just my thoughts….I like that there is a discussion element at Dooce, but sometimes I just want to see what people have to say about the picture or about the day’s post. I don’t necessarily want to know about someone else’s life unless I asked. Could this be remedied with a Dooce Chat Forum? That way, if one were so inclined, one could check out the chatter about topics other than Leta’s juicy, delicious thighs.
Excellent post. I was just thinking yesterday as I read your wife’s post how strange it is that there appears to be some sort of contest going on to be the first to post. I find this very bizarre. Especially when the comment only consists of “I’m first,” and nothing relating to the post that your wife so brilliantly wrote. In regards to Carol’s comment above, I think you may have misunderstood. I don’t believe Jon was saying he doesn’t welcome comments. If this were the case, I’m sure he would take the option to comment off completely. Bloggers do want comments. I just recently started my own blog and love when I get comments from the 2 people that read it. I do agree with you, though, and what a great analagy.
Great analogy indeed. I was rather hoping that you might say something along these lines.
I am a regular reader of both Jon and Heather’s site, and I also agree with MetroDad. Sometimes you see completely random comments, and/or wayyy off topic. Sometimes fun, sometimes not so much.
One, I agree with Miss Kimberly and MetroDad that some of the comments (actually many of the comments) Dooce gets from her posts are strange and irrelevant.
Two, I think that underpinning your confusion about this question “at what point does the artist even matter” is an ambivalence about desiring relevance in a post-modern world. I think we want relevance, we want some ownership over the meaning of the writing, but we feel that we shouldn’t want that, because post modernism tells us that the community receiving the art plays just as much a role in its “meaning making” as we do.
Which sticks a little bit, in the craw, don’t you think?
Interesting topic. I have all but quit commenting (at Dooce) because of this trend.
Short-time reader, first-time commenter here. This is a great analogy, and I just wanted to comment to let you know that I thought that you were smart when I read your post.
Also, I think that commenting on other, more popular blogs (at least in some bloggy circles) and linking to your own site through the comments, is a way for some people to try to get more traffic on their own blog.
Instead of stage-diving, though, is it more like a throwing gladioli/hugging Morrissey thing?
I’m first!
Okay, just kidding. Anyway I just wanted to say thank you for voicing what has been in my thoughts for a few days. Essentially that it appears that some people’s sites (errr comments) have turned into forum posts. At times to the point where two people are just basically having a dialogue on someone else’s website. Strange creatures we are.
Well said. Thanks, Jon.
the band also wasn’t opening the stage for the world to join in. when you have a comments page, people will comment. i think it is in our nature to see our name up in lights, or on the screen as the case may be (, especially if we can attatch our opinion to it). it does open up a lot for discussion, is the comments page for the blogger or for the viewers? anyway, i’m new to all this so maybe i just don’t know propper blog etiquete (sorry, can’t spell)
i noticed this phenomenon on dooce recently (and i assume this is what you’re referring to) — the comments veering dramatically from the original post, devolving into a “conversation” between commentors, often about things having nothing to do with what heather posted. i personally found it a little irritating in the “get a room!” sort of sense, but exhibitionists will be exhibitionists.
It’s not just dooce.com but other sites as well. By all means, I welcome comments, as I’d love to hear differing opinions or insights that I may not have considered. That’s why the comment form is made available. I just find it interesting what people do/say when given an open mic.
Then there are all the D.C. shows where people come and don’t move a muscle or dance a bone. They just stand there and take it all in. If one should jump up and down or stage dive, folks react quickly, armed with the most disturbing looks. Said stage-diver or dancing dolt is quickly made to feel like an idiot. They apparently missed the memo written years ago by our lord, sir Ian Mackaye.
I got spoiled living in D.C. and going to shows. Generally speaking, people are there to see and hear the music.
Just know that for every stage-diver there are folks in the way back, near the mixing board taking it all in and enjoying every minute of it regardless of all the “SEE ME!” fans.
One could always pull a David Yow and kick them in the head.
I like reading the posts on popular sites. The funny little one or two line comments regarding the picture or blog. I also like reading the little stories people have that they were reminded of because of the pic or blog. What I can’t stand is when the comments become an area of people talking to eachother. I used to read ever single one of the comments on Dooce.com but now I skim. I don’t even read what certain people say because it doesn’t in any way apply to anything that Dooce wrote (or the picture she posted). It doesn’t apply to anyone else other than the few people that are conversing there.
Its great that people find friendships there and they have lots of stuff in common but I think when they are taking over another persons blog comments they should either take it to their own site or emails.
Just my 2 cents.
I was just thinking this same thing a couple of days ago. About how people will turn comments into a message board for themselves.
But…with his feet? Maaaaan.
“Also, I think that commenting on other, more popular blogs (at least in some bloggy circles) and linking to your own site through the comments, is a way for some people to try to get more traffic on their own blog.” - fayrene
Yep, blogvertising. I know that I would have a tendency to do this but I try to restrain myself until I at least have something relevant to say. On fark.com, they somehow arranged it so that anyone using the words “First post!” or similar in the comments gets their time stamp bumped 12 hours later… pushing them to the end of the list. I think it’s a great idea.
I laughed my head off the morning dooce posted the first comment in her photo of the day - can’t remember the exact quote but something like “I’m first, suckas!”
Question, does anyone actually click on commenter links? Unless I am offended or totally shocked by someone’s blatant disregard for the facts or by their glistening stupidity, I rarely ever click on their links.
You can give out free tickets to a rock show, but if the band sucks, you’re never going to go back. And surely you’re not going to run and tell your friends about it. (Unless they’re really awful, in which case, that works just as well — at least for a while.)
On occasion, someone says something intelligent or insightful and I’ll click to find out a bit more about them. But for the most part it’s sort of like flipping through channels; as quickly as one is seen, they’re also that easily forgotten.
Clearly, I need a job. I will shut face now. I fear that I’m moving into the territory of Jon’s post.
Drummers sell their souls to the devil in order to get the 4 limb coordination needed to do what they do. Really, how else do you explain all the havoc the cause? The drummer in my current band is the exception: smart, punctual, easy to get along with and has good hygiene and killer chops. If she ever deceides to quit we’re chaining her to the throne and telling everyone she spontaneously combusted.
A really interesting notion about the dada-esque nature of the comments. One of the things I love about blogs is the inclusive nature of them. I guess de-railment of the original idea is the risk you run. I quite often read the last comments first and wonder “how did they get to that?” Usually you can track it back to one off-topic comment that grabs people’s attention.
I also believe that music should be about inclusivness. Hell, I blogged about it recently. But there’s a point where, as you said, the audience can interfere with what the artist is trying to present. It’s never happened to me, but I’m sure it’d piss me off. You spent a great chunk of your time creating and perfecting something, you’d like people to have the chance to hear it.
The good thing about a blog is that the original post is always there to be read despite what the comments end up talking about. The poster’s voice will aways be heard unlike a gig where the audience gets out of hand and starts knocking the perfomers around.
And hey people: you folks that do that kinda thing, keep in mind that the musicans are packing. An electric guitar is a goodly hunk of wood and metal, you don’t want to be hit upside’a anything with one.
I find that when comments start being overtaken by folks just wanting to play games with each other and have nothing to say about the post/photo/whatever, I am less inclined to read the comments at all or make a comment myself. I will click on a commentor link if they’ve said something particularly worthwhile, entertaining, intelligent, or charming. I’ve come across some of my favorite reads that way. In fact, I first started reading mihow because of good comment. So there ya go.
32nd post! Yeah!
Umm, I mean:
This is one of the problems with democracy as it exists in America today: given the opportunity to speak their mind, some people feel COMPELLED to speak it, even if they don’t have anything to say on topic. For them, it is part empowerment, part release.
Personally, I am willing to put up with it. Then again, I don’t update my blog more than once a year. As responsible blog commenters, we just need to be aware of it.
I have pondered to myself how in the world “blog celebrities” have time to read all the comments that are left. And, gosh, how intriguing those “I’m first” comments must be to the blog celebrity. Wasn’t there a contest going on about trying to be last the other day? Maybe a spoof on the “first”, but STILL.
As you say, though, not that there’s anything wrong with that.
thank you for this post. this is why I do not usually comment, and do not read dooces comments. I hate when the crowd takes over the show. my natural fears of mob violence I guess. However, I do enjoy some smaller blogs and shows that have a nice community between artist and audience.
I run a weekly open mic event. It’s a combination of very cool and excruciating. Shades of brilliance at times, but mostly populated by people with rockstar delusions.
Re: comment boards of 100+ comments. Its only at that level that a moderated board becomes necessary. For instance, it is obvious that Dooce is a heavily moderated board, as almost all comments are warm and fuzzy - not a single dissenting voice. A free-for-all board is almost surely a mistake at that level. Any self-respecting and rational artist would welcome rational and constructive criticism of their work, but one would quickly tire of fending off half-baked comments.
I like blurbomat. Always thought provoking and intelligent.
“comment-posting-commenters with all our “commenting commentaries”…
That about sums it up.
I really like to see feedback about what the author was writing about in the first place. I suppose it can be hard to always stick to the topic when so many people are involved with something. It’s like a form of “bonding” for us readers, because the blog in question is brings people (most of us have nothing, and I mean nothing in common, except sharing the interest of the blog) together, to talk and bounce around words together.
In your comparison to comment ìhijackingî and a Fishbone concert you are lumping a more diverse area into a small stack. There will always be those who will try to take a small piece of the ìartistî away with them by changing the fabric for association purposes, and there are those who will bounce ideas taken form the ìartistî, and be one with the fabric. Poetic, maybeÖ
I think this might have to do with getting attention. On a smaller audience level there is no contest between readers to get a response. Since popular blogs have more comments you donít need to respond to the comments as much as a blog with a smaller audience. It would be impossible to respond to every comment and question poised by your readers. A comment area on a blog is not like a chat room with a monitor to keep the subject matter uniform.
If things get of track after the 100th comment, you canít blame people for the occasional ìI like ducks!î comment. The comment area can be just as entertaining as the blog itself whereas, watching stage divers can be annoying after the fourth or fifth time. That would be like (in comparison to stage diving affecting the bands ability to play) saying my monitor would go out every time someone changed the subject matter. Not interesting at all.
If in fact the artist was deeply involved and responsive in his or her comments, then it would be less likely to be ìhijackedî. This is not to be said for the poor musicians whose stage gets invaded by drunken fans.
Well said. I get annoyed when there is a whole conversation going on between a few people that has nothing to do with what they are “commenting on.” However, I do appreciate when someone asks a question (usually intended for the author) and people answer. But that is assuming it relates to the original post/picture.
Wow. I am floored by today’s post.
I agree that things had gotten a bit out of hand at Dooce. But it was mostly late at night after hundrends of comments and people seemed to be having fun.
I saw several people mention the idea of an IRC dooce-related chat room to take the conversation elsewhere. I think that’s a great idea so people can talk to each other without clogging the comment section on her site. But people obviously do care about it, because it was discussed. I don’t think these folks were trying to steal anyone’s thunder. I think most of them were just having fun.
I just think it’s kind of crappy to post an ambigous analogy about rock stars to get your point across. You have these people’s email addresses, or some of them anyway. Why not just ask them to tone it down?
At any rate I suppose your mission will be accomplished. It’s a shame to be holier than thou about it. But, oh well.
Holier than thou?? Hardly. Typical troll behavior. Now, if I deleted your comment, that would be holier than something wouldn’t it?
Also, you are easily floored, apparently. I wasn’t saying that anything was “out of hand”.
I just think it’s kind of crappy for someone to post anonymously and be a troll.
I don’t even know what troll means in internet terms.
Delete away Blurb. I don’t get why you are being so agressive and mean about this. People respect you guys, I’m just saying why not treat others with respect if you feel they have stepped on your toes. You might be surprised at how they respond.
People are not as evil as you think. In fact they are actually a lot like you. Just people.
Describe EXACTLY how I’m being mean. EXACTLY.
Sigh.
If you don’t see that you are being really aggressive, then I don’t know how to show you that.
People respect you and Dooce a lot. Including me. Most of the commenters on her site DO care about their comments and how they would effect others. A few people got out of control.
Why assume they were trying to steal the spotlight? Why not just contact them via email and say “hey, could you tone it down a bit”.
Some folks have their feelings hurt and maybe that’s what needed to happen. I just don’t think so. I think people deserve better than that.
I’d like to point to a few things in my post:
1) I wasn’t referring to dooce.com exclusively. Lots of other sites have way worse comments. Like Slashdot or Fark. What I am referring to isn’t that people are being over the top or insensitive, just interesting. And there is a point of absurdity. Sometimes it’s funny, sometimes it’s not. Sometimes it’s awesome, sometimes it’s not.
2) I love that you want me to email people, but you yourself use a faked email address. Sweet.
3) Who got out of control? Did I say anyone got out of control? I did not. YOU are the only one saying people got out of control. I don’t have a problem with ANY of the comments; just wanted to point out that it’s a bit like seeing a band where sometimes, the kids want the stage too. No big whoop.
4) Who, specifically has their feelings hurt? Direct me to them, and I’ll apologize.
I don’t think dj blurb wants anyone to tone it down necessarily. I think he is just ruminating on a phenomenon.
Right?
Unfortunately, the entire discussion is a slippery slope. How do you tell your readers and commenters you appreciate their input and perspective, while at the same time trying to discourage the random chuckle heads from burning unecessary bandwidth? This entire consideration started for me a while back when I made an observation regarding the sheer volume of inane comments Dooce got on her site. People would gush about this and that no matter what it was. So, I pointed it out. I got a few agreeable responses, but mostly it was just violently angry backlash.
I think what it really comes down to is a need for recognition. This is in line with all the monkeys trying to be the first or last commenter everyday. I find myself falling into a similar cycle to at times. I struggle to figure out the most clever reference to a post or a picture. Why do I do that? Who knows? Perhaps just recognition and acceptance from the almighty internet. If the internet validates me as clever or funny, then I must be clever and funny, right?
Personally, I am as thankful for the comments as I am the blog contents themselves. Whenever anyone comes up with a witty comment, it makes me laugh as much as the witty blog that started the whole thing.
That is where I think your analogy falters. The comments, unlike the stage divers do not obscure or hide the artist. They do more service to praise the artist by taking their creativity and running with it.
I completely agree that commenting does get crazy and way off topic. And yes, people do try to show how they can be just as funny as Dooce. However, I think there is a major difference between this and fans hijacking the stage. In this setting, a Dooce fan can simply read what she brilliantly writes and move on, like I often do. In the other, the fan can’t enjoy that choice.
Jon, I think your post could be taken personally at some point. I don’t think you meant it as an insult to your readers. I believe wow had a point about the holier than thou comment, and should not to be taken personally by you. If you were to get ìpig biting madî when ever anyone did not respond to your posts the way you wanted them to then that would be a holier than thou response.
Thatís just the way I see it. I think your post was indeed interesting and many attitudes and ideas were sprung from it. Thatís what makes the whole ìpost and commentî thing worth wild.
Since your response to wow was less than overjoyed, it shows how this turn of events makes a whole new topic. Are we being ìhijackedî? Only if you and wow have an all out ìwhoís the bigger trollî battle.
I read for the music references. Another sick drummer is from Mastodon. If he could be plugged into the early Metallica releases, metal nirvana would be reached.