A Nerd Vent
December 29th, 2004I know I’m supposed to be all “dude, 2004 was awesome and here are 7,000 links to all the awesome stuff.”
Can’t do it. This is a geek entry. It shouldn’t make Leta less cute, though. Plus, Leta was born in 2004. That’s all you need to know, right there.
Anyway, I was going to write a big long message to the Movable Type Developer’s Network, because a certain hot-button issue came up for me. Namely, the way categories are used (and under-used) in Movable Type. Bear in mind that I have a headache, it’s late and I’m too lazy to go back through and change all the MT’s to Movable Type. If you see MT below, I meant to type Movable Type, but couldn’t due to holiday delirium.
Here’s what I was going to send:
I may have been a little glib about the category implementation, but I think the ability to have a template that is specific to a category (or group of categories) should be application-level functionality, not reliant on plug-ins. Regardless of philosophy about what the software does and where it’s going, the app [Movable Type] currently provides categories (and now sub-categories) as a way to display and sort content. It doesn’t allow for a very full range of options. As a result, brilliant plug-ins have been written to make up for the shortcomings of how Movable Type deals with categories. I just think it’s time for MT to step it up in this regard, and having spent three years using MT, it’s been my biggest hangup. MT has created such an enormous level of empowerment, I would love to see it get more powerful from the inside.
When we redesigned Dooce, we used a method described here to get the various category archives to render differently. My real-world reason for venting: what happens when a category is added? The main user (Heather) has to tell me she’s added a category and I have to go in and code all those includes and templates.
How should it work, then? When I make a new category, I should be able to assign an archive template to it. So for categories 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 9 and 15 archives, use Template A. Categories 3, 5 and 10 use Template B. How sweet would that be? Everytime the user adds a category, they associate an archive template with it. My life would be awesome.
I know that TextPattern has something like this, but why doesn’t Movable Type?
What if I wanted to do a site that had nothing to do with publish date but relied solely on categorization for it’s architecture? I’d have to jump through some big hoops with MT to accomplish this, particularly if I wanted the app to build my navigation. Previous and Next entry within a specific category isn’t something that I can do very easily with MT, either. I believe this should also be core application functionality, particularly for large sites that have loads of categories.
The other major issue with categories being juiced would be having to not sweat plug-in breakage with every major upgrade. That the tutorial and methodology linked to above is dated 2003 speaks to the need for a hard look at categories and their functionality within MT. It’s not just the template per category issue, either. It goes deeper into the app. Let’s say I want to show lastn entries for a particular category on every page of my site. It won’t work without some major gymnastics. It shouldn’t be so hard.
Jay Allen, I was being cheeky in my earlier email. Chalk it up to too much eggnog and chocolate and Aunt Lola’s toffee. But categories, man. Categories. Kind of like in The Graduate where the guy says, “Plastics, Ben, Plastics.”
I’m now going to upgrade my cloak of invisibility to a level 30 and throw a 20-sided die to determine whether or not my gonads will remain attached or put in the freezer. o
December 30th, 2004 at 11:41 am
“The only question that pops up from that, though, is why you chose to speak about the presentation layer when the complaint is about templates :)”
Because for a vast majority of people, the two are one in the same (not that they should be). But I addressed the rest of John’s post with my agreement that categories need work.
Exactly what we will do and when, I can’t say, not because I don’t know or don’t want to say, but because it is company policy not to discuss future features. We underpromise and overdeliver because we believe it’s better for everyone in the long run despite the downside of giving the feeling that we aren’t doing anything to address some people’s concerns.
Needless to say, there are a world of things going on inside of Six Apart that will not be made evident to the public until they are ready for download and installation. Hence, you should definitely judge us on our releases and not on what we say in the comment sections of peoples’ weblogs.
December 30th, 2004 at 11:48 am
P.S. Today marks the second time in two weeks I have spelled my husband’s last name wrong.
I’m such an asshole. Boudreaux.
December 30th, 2004 at 12:04 pm
TextPattern rules.
Basically all the points you made Jon, are what has made me the fan of TextPattern that I am today. It’s SO customizable. Maybe not the best interface going, but it’s easy to overlook with the functionality.
MT, Blogger, etc, etc ushered in a new era in web. All the content is displayed the same though. It’s getting old. If there are Categories, there should be templates assignable to each. It should be inherent to the app.
Send that email Jon.
Toby - your system sounds awesome! I’d love to hear/see more about it.
December 30th, 2004 at 12:07 pm
Thank you! This post taught me something valuable about myself: I’m a geek geek. I had no reason to read that, I don’t code anthing ever. But I read it, and what’s more, enjoyed it. I love to read about things people are passionate about and there’s no one more passionate than a geek on a rant. So geek on my brother!
[fails Boss avoidance saving throw, gets back to work]
December 30th, 2004 at 12:11 pm
Nick - you can email me to discuss any of the features. I can share the UML diagrams and db schemas with you as well. blurbomat at my username dot com.
December 30th, 2004 at 12:11 pm
oh, last thought I forgot to post above:
MT is not a free tool. People paying for it (and any other not-free blog tool) should be getting the BEST options and functionality around. When WordPress, TextPattern, and a bunch of other free and open source blogging solutions are out-functioning the for-pay tools, there’s something wrong.
Donate to TextPattern (or the like) and encourage its further growth instead of paying out-right for something that’s not cutting the frickin mustard.
[there, MY geek rant is over now. wish my wife got as hot about geek talk...]
December 30th, 2004 at 12:22 pm
Just switch to WordPress and be done with it. We are addressing all of these concerns in the 1.5 branch, as well as having Spam Karma which elimenates spam problems.
I would love to discuss this with you guys, or you could always hit up Matt the lead dev http://photomatt.net .
Or hell stop by the irc channel #wordpress on irc.freenode.net .
All the best to you and your family out in Mormon Land.
December 30th, 2004 at 12:44 pm
Yes.
December 30th, 2004 at 4:10 pm
I was sort of a test case for exactly the non-date-based organization that you talk about. My site is entirely categorized, regardless of date.
But since I’m not very smart (and wasn’t even aware of the Movable Type plugins for this), I couldn’t figure out how to make each category have its own template.
I eventually settled on just giving each archive its own set of images, then misnaming a few so that the feature image would be the appropriate one for each category. In other words, each category still uses the same template, but because they’re pulling images from their own folder, they each LOOK slightly different.
But the fact that I had to go to that much trouble for ONE different image per category section is stupid.
December 30th, 2004 at 4:12 pm
i suspect there’s a treasure trove of info in the comments, which i will peruse this evening after CX is in bed, but i have to say that (on your advice, jon) i upgraded to 3.14 and then my category archive page broke. it just broke. my monthly archives page–which used the same MT code, just for ‘monthly’ instead of ‘category’–was fine. so, i tried a few new MT tags, but still no luck. i didn’t want to re-code my &^%$*! site (or even one page; i’m lazy like that), and i admit that i wondered if i was a fool to have done the upgrade. well, today, with no rebuild, no nothing, the old code suddenly works again. ??!? so anyway, no, i don’t have a productive syllable to add to the discussion, just enjoying an (inappropriate?) opportunity to vent on the same topic.
December 30th, 2004 at 4:12 pm
I’m glad I’m not the only one having issues with MT and categories and templates. All I want is a different sidebar for certain categories. That shouldn’t have to involve me spending half of my lunch hour scribbling ideas onto a notepad as to how to accomplish this minor feat. (I’m quite the MT and PHP newbie, and I get excited when I figure out how stuff goes, especially coding.)
December 30th, 2004 at 4:32 pm
“MT is not a free tool.”
MT will ALWAYS have a free version[1]. What’s more, we’ve gone a step further and made it possible for people to secure a free commerical version[2] as well.
[1]: http://tinyurl.com/yt7pv
[2]: http://sixapart.com/pronet/overview.html
“People paying for it (and any other not-free blog tool) should be getting the BEST options and functionality around.”
Many would argue that they are.
“When WordPress, TextPattern, and a bunch of other free and open source blogging solutions are out-functioning the for-pay tools, there’s something wrong.”
While the two that you mention are great tools, I will point out that there are a large and increasing number of people who are thrilled with Movable Type. You may not be one of those and feel that these other tools out-perfom MT in the areas you care about and that’s fine. MT is no more good for every person than Wordpress or TextPattern are.
It’s all a matter of personal choice.
In closing, I should also point out that Six Apart is still growing and doing so quite quickly. Also, for the first time, there is one person who is solely focused on the development of Movable Type. That’s me. Neither Wordpress nor TextPattern have a full-time shepherd, not to mention a team of highly talented people who are paid good money to focus solely on development and support of the software. Yes, open source is awesome, but it’s not always the best model for everyone.
December 30th, 2004 at 4:38 pm
I think the issues that Jay brings up are exactly why I’m nervous to use other solutions for client work. While they are great tools, they don’t have the infrastructure that Movable Type does. That’s not to say the others aren’t suitable for client work, just that me personally, I’m sticking with Movable Type.
I’ve got another long-winded piece about content management and how it’s changed my life coming. I’m certain the fainting has begun in anticipation. At least I’m not talking about my wife’s underpants and how often I pee. Although, I’m sure many of you would love to hear all about my wife’s underpants. Not gonna happen. Unless something really funny happens.
December 30th, 2004 at 4:56 pm
“Underpants” is a great word.
For what it’s worth, Jon, I come here because I like yer stuff, not because I consider it “Dooce Lite” or “Dooce Part 2.” I’m glad you don’t feel the need to write about the same things รณ how boring would THAT be?
Thanks for the good discussions. Happy New Year!
December 30th, 2004 at 5:47 pm
Do what the man says! I’ve been wanting more category features for ages! And if we’re asking for features (which we’re not really, but this is a geek post, and geek posts need to be full of off topic things, and rambling things, and slating of Dave Winer. Why had Dave Winer not be mentioned yet? Didn’t he invent categories?) then can we have one that stops MT from creating archives for certain categories? That’d be lovely.
December 30th, 2004 at 8:49 pm
Panties! Glorious Panties!
yeah, let’s just stick to the geek stuff. I don’t really wanna hear about anyone peeing - unless it’s my son finally potty training!
JAY:
I realize my comments sounded rather harsh. I apologize as I didn’t mean them to be as such.
I’ve used MT a lot in the past (part of my website is still running on an OLD version of MT), and have setup a past client using it as well.
Jon’s got a good point of going with a known quantity in MT, which is piad to be there in a sense. TxP or WP could be gone tomorrow and it would be sad, and leave a lot of people in a lurch.
As for independant work, I’m certainly in the preference of TxP - it’s more my taste.
“Use what suits you best” is always a good position to follow. I’m one who tries out every new app and tool, especially at update times. so I’ll continue to look at what MT is doing on subsequent releases. I hope I can get as excited about it as you make it sound. Until then… cheers.
December 30th, 2004 at 8:57 pm
Speaking of panties, if this isn’t strange, I don’t know what is …
Today I wore Hanes bikini briefs and that made my boyfriend more hot than those stupid brazillian thongs ever did.
December 30th, 2004 at 9:14 pm
Speaking of which. Heather has totally got to photograph you in your temple garment underwear. While you sleep, if necessary. And then post the photos. She’s got us curious. Not that you’re a sex object, or anything, except insofar as a guy’s mind is definitely his sexiest bit. Fetching underwear surely helps, though.
December 30th, 2004 at 10:38 pm
I knew that talk of underwear would be bad. Heather is going to PAY.
One of the things that is a holdover from my Mormon-ness is the T-shirt part of the underwear. I don’t like wearing a shirt without an undershirt. Match that with anything on the bottom that is white and well, yeah. Match that get-up with a woman who gets a lot of glee out of her version of tickling me and I’m certain that like a bad nickname, this temple worker thing is gonna stick.
If I had categories, one would be: Things That Shouldn’t be Discussed Publicly.
There will be tickling. Lots of it.
December 30th, 2004 at 11:04 pm
Gaaahhh! No more underwear talk, please!! I actually looked up what Mormon underwear looked like awhile back. One of my friends is Mormon and until she mentioned it, I never knew. How funny is that?
I must admit that I use Wordpress (somewhat of a novice, but like it). I love their categories feature. Why doesn’t MT make it easier for their users like WP does?
Just curious.
December 30th, 2004 at 11:51 pm
“Why doesn’t MT make it easier for their users like WP does?”
Because we at Six Apart like making things more difficult so that our users feel a sense of accomplishment when they get the software to do what they intended. Making things easy is for sissies!
Seriously, read what I wrote above. I’m the Product Manager for Movable Type.
December 31st, 2004 at 12:09 am
i’m sure my secret decoder ring is in the mail. i will wait for it and come back to decypher this gibberish when it arrives.
by the way, since we’re not talking about what you just said, i’d like to say that i think spain looks like a lovely place to live. i know, totally off topic but so what.
December 31st, 2004 at 2:21 am
So, you could tell me… does your level 9 wizard beat my thrice-enchanted troll, bearing in mind, of course, that my troll is wearing the temple-garment-underpants?
But seriously… this is why she married you. Hell, right now I’d marry you, but much more of that insanely-smart-guy-stuff & my head would explode for ignorance.
December 31st, 2004 at 6:17 am
tobyjoe.. I was once a Java Apostle at a division of a company that no longer exists. The fact that PHP hosting is ubiquitously free and ASP.NET is ubiquitous and Java servers are almost nowhere to be found and pricey might make you think twice. I’ve found that Java has been pretty much relegated to the enterprise. The fact that every Java app you deployed had to be accompanied by one or another version of the runtime drove me bonkers. I had runtimes littering directories all over my hard drive.
I do everything in ASP.NET when I can, or PHP if I can’t. ASP.NET seems the result of sooo much more deliberate thought, too bad it’s sooo MS centric. And being a Java ripoff C# is … well Java on steroids. And Flash seems so WAY more ubiquitous but remoting is still way more difficult. I vote PHP for ubiquity. Open is ubiquitous. In Java, if you build it, will anyone come?
December 31st, 2004 at 9:29 am
Dabbler - I agree wholeheartedly about the ubiquity of PHP4. PHP5 is a far better language, though, and the adoption rate amongst cheap vhost companies is going to be quite slow. While I do want to allow for personal use, one of my major goals is to provide a framework+component package with a default build that allows for my commercial clients to meet their needs. I stay away from .NET as much as possible and absolutely despise code-behind and the difficulty in producing standards-compliant markup. That said, I do have to use it on occasion. C# *is* a great language. It’s quite nice.
Most of my clients want to avoid MS at all costs. This includes clients as large as the House Democrats and US Navy, as well as tons of consumer media companies. That pretty much puts my real need at either a LAMP system or Java. For LAMP, PHP5 or Python are my real choices. Most of my clients are more comfortable with PHP than with Python, but I’d put the number of hosts running PHP5 at the same level as those running Java. One thing that is pushing me towards PHP5 is that I imagine more of the free users will already have relationships with Linux hosts running PHP.
One additional thing, which constitutes nothing but unsolicited advice
Jon mentions only using MT for client work, and that seems dangerous to me. I’m not sure what type of clients you have, but I doubt every client wants a blog. MT is quite inflexible. If you want to choose a system that has great support and is powerful, check out Plone. Of course, if your clients *do* just want cookie-cutter blogs, stick with what works.