Let the Arguing Commence
August 28th, 2007Influential Drummer Bracketology on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Thanks to reader Louis for sending this along. I wonder if a re-bracketing wouldn’t bring different results. What also might be interesting is a genealogy of influence from the jazz drummers into the rock and pop world. You can’t listen to “Walking on the Moon” or any track off of Ghost in the Macnine and not hear brilliance. See also: hi-hat work on “Red Rain” intro:
But then there’s this (see Dunstan’s comment on the flickr photo above):
My dad would always say that nobody could touch Buddy Rich. Even my precious rock drummers with 18 minute solos. The left hand work alone is insane. Also, towards the end, there is a bit of a snare stew working that few modern drummers could pull off.
DRUMMERS. RULE. o
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August 28th, 2007 at 11:37 am
Am I a fool for suggesting that Liberty Devito is a glaring omission from the bracket?
August 28th, 2007 at 11:46 am
Not that Devitto would win… I’m just saying, I think he’s good enough to be seeded in a bracket.
August 28th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
I’ve maintained that the reason for the stereotype of drummers being difficult to work with is because they are difficult to work with. And the reason for that is because in order to get the four limb coordination needed to drum you have to sell your soul to the devil. Seriously, it’s unnatural, normal humans can’t do it.
As to Coupland may I just say: the Rumble Fish soundtrack. Tasty indeed. Mind you, Sting claims that Coupland doesn’t keep very good time. He whinged about really enjoying playing again with the Police for their first benefit reunion until they were a couple of songs in and Stuart had slipped out of time.
August 28th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
You’re absolutely right on with the Ghost in the Machine reference… Copeland somehow managed to disconnect his brain and produce amazing poly-rhythms without even the least bit of mental effort.
Another reference: Hi hat work on “walking on the moon.”
In the Jazz world, I am liking Jeff Hamilton - he throws that polyrhythm thing in there too, every once in a while.
August 28th, 2007 at 2:33 pm
Agreed that Buddy Rich is untouchable. Without question…
Neil Peart is suspiciously lacking from the flickr bracket also. As a drummer, I have always tried to have even 1% of his skill. He is the best drummer than I have seen live. Period.
Best jazz drummer that I have seen live: Butch Miles (Count Basie Orchestra) I could not find any decent clips showing his solo skills on YouTube, but he is the drummer in this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcMX5dukUFE (if link gets broken: http://tinyurl.com/38slwz)
August 28th, 2007 at 4:01 pm
WOW.. the buddy rich stuff is out of this world - anyone recommend any recordings (albums) that feature some of the best buddy rich?
August 28th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
You know how I feel about Stuart. And of course Neil. But, I was lucky enough to see Buddy Miles on tour with Junior Brown and he was unbelievable. Really talented drummers freak me out, in a good way. It’s hard to comprehend.
August 28th, 2007 at 8:18 pm
BUDDY MILES!!!! Good call! I have been sitting here thinking who I want to send my drumming love to and have been all twisted up trying to make a decision. Got to give to Buddy. The Band of Gypsys album is amazing. Buddy Miles and Billy Cox definitely lay down the groove. I think that’s the thing I was looking for … a drummer who really grooves. Thanks Amanda!
(I almost said Charlie Watts earlier in the day but figured that would raise some debate. Hey, the guy can keep time like no one else. A human metronome. Simplicity can be a beautiful thing)
August 28th, 2007 at 8:27 pm
Although you do have to give it up to Dave Grohl for being able to kick it on set of kids drums - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyO7lvzfw5Q
Ah hell … they’re all better than me. But I keep trying. Jon, you are right: DRUMMERS.RULE
August 28th, 2007 at 9:18 pm
Jon Bonham, Keith Moon, and Ginger Baker steal the show in my book.
August 29th, 2007 at 3:27 am
Can I respectfully submit Mike Mangini as something of a talented bloke?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pROEtW2UGCc
August 29th, 2007 at 7:30 am
Marty, I have never heard of Mike Mangini, but after watching that link I have to agree with you that he is indeed talented.
Another guy that I remembered after posting yesterday was Akira Jimbo. I remember seeing a crazy bunch of solos that he did on instructional videos. Here’s a YouTube clip of Akira: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY2Jj1KOCP0
BTW, Jon, great post! All the drummers are coming out of the woodwork.
August 29th, 2007 at 7:46 am
OK, sorry about all the comments. But, I found a video that really showcases Akira’s footwork, which is unbelievable: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhjOrj0Sm6I especially towards the end of the clip where he uses his left heel and toe on two separate pedals. OK, I will stop flooding this post now. Thanks.
August 29th, 2007 at 10:54 am
Gadd vs. Rich would have been a better final match-up. Buddy and Gadd on the same stage could likely play one another note for note. Gadd being the most recorded modern drummer, his chops have been lifted by everyone that inspires to hold a stick.
August 29th, 2007 at 11:57 am
Not to hate, but Neil Peart is all chops, no taste. (Actually, that goes for the whole band — which is not to say that Rush isn’t tunz of fun, because they are.) As Gadd proves, a little restraint goes a long way.
August 29th, 2007 at 6:51 pm
Oh man…it’s all I can do to NOT sound like a total snob here, but there is so much I disagree with this list. A list full of soloists with zero team concept (yes, Buddy Rich being the ultimate “piss off it’s my show” kinda guy).
This list looks more like the “Modern Drummer said it’s okay for us to like these guys” kind of list.
Kinda funny how my favorites got eliminated early:
- Bonham
- Jim Keltner
- Ringo (loses to Max Weinberg…really?)
- Elvin Jones
- Zigaboo
- Keith Moon
If Buddy’s their guy then I’m happy most of my favorites didn’t get that far.
Notable absences:
- Joey Baron
- Mel Lewis
- Buddy Miles (not to be confused with Butch Miles)
- Levon Helm
- Hal Blaine
- Danny Richmond
- Jabo Starks
- Clyde Stubblefield
- Chris Frantz
These guys need to turn off the Phish, stop reading Modern Drummer and check into some other music. It’s a big world out there.
(Sorry Armstrong, you knew it was coming didn’t you)
August 30th, 2007 at 6:18 pm
First, Stewart Copeland was the Buddy Rich of his time. I’m a Neil Peart fan, to be sure, but he doesn’t quite have the finesse, the gentility of Mr. Copeland.
Second, in case anyone is actually reading this besides Mr. Armstrong, “Don’t Box Me In” is a tune that you must find, hear, absorb, and become one with.
Third, while Buddy could solo better than anyone, ever, I’m not as blindly devoted to his playing in a groove with other musicians. He was great. No doubt. And he worked with giants - Charlie Parker, Bud Powell, Benny Goodman, Ella Fitzgerald, Lester Young, Louis Armstrong, Oscar Peterson, Stan Getz… and that’s not half the list of the greats he played with.
However, when he played, in my opinion, he was a different drummer than when he soloed. He was less fierce, he was less risky, he was less awesome. And I get why, because he was the consummate professional in the studio. He knew what the composer/lead musician wanted, and gave it to them. He was supportive before he was anything else. No other musician has that lack of ego on recordings.
Which begets a lesser rating from me, because I’m partial to the drummers who hang it over the edge, no matter what. I love jazz that’s truly wild, unpredictable, like being the passenger of a drunk taxi driver.
So for group playing, I’ll take Jack DeJohnette over Buddy Rich any day.
Fourth, what the hell happened to Stewart Copeland? He was astonishing back in the 80s. And yeah, he still records now and again, and he did some great work for Tom Waits a few years ago, but really, he just never turned into the giant that was Buddy Rich. Maybe that was Mr. Copeland’s choice, I don’t know. I’d like to think so, that while he was a genius at the drums, it was just a day-job to him, and that when he’s not adding his magic to Mr. Waits or Mr. Claypool’s music, he’s enjoying his life on his terms. G-d bless him if that’s the case.
Fifth, thanks for this, John. You woke me up with this post. I think I’ll head into the garage with the wife and see if I can persuade her to pick up the guitar while I caress the skins.