Back to the second amendment. It is clear ( to me anyway) that the Bill of Rights was written to secure individual rights for citizens. Look at the other nine. Why would the 2nd amendment be the only one written to define a states right ?

Glenn Reynolds ( Yes he is a right wing Blogger) but a also a pretty open minded guy ) has said that he dreams of a country where a same sex couple can be legally married and keep guns in the closet. He is a law professor in Tennessee and has written extensively on the 2nd amendment. I really recommend this article.
I highly recommend THIS.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/25/eveningnews/main3537271.shtml

http://joemerchant24.blogspot.com/2007/12/firsthand-account-of-von-maur-shooting.html

brian Says: “So, does getting a concealed weapon permit train one in how to engage in this type of situation? As far as I understand it, it only teaches you gun safety. ”

brian, you understand INcorrectly. a concealed weapons permit requires training in gun safety, the laws regarding use of force, the logistics of carrying, the laws about where you can and can’t carry, etc.

In our class, the training made me LESS apt to use a gun in self defense than I would have previously. We were taught that if you shoot someone, even in clear self defense, be prepared to go to jail and spend thousands on an attorney and months of legal proceedings and fear about the outcome and finally, hope that the 12 jurors see things your way. A few case studies made for quite an eye opener. We were taught that, basically, the only time you should draw your gun in self defense is if you literally thing, “Oh my God, I’m going to die!”.

One result of this training is that because of the legal issues involved and the potential for jurors to not see things my way, I’ve decided that I would only use my weapons for my own self defense or the defense of my family, not necessarily for the defense of other who have made the decision that they do not want to carry. My first objective is to retreat if possible, but if not possible, I’d then try to eliminate the immediate threat to my family.

Some other things we were encouraged to do is to become more passive and aware. When a guy or gal cuts you off in traffic, let it go. When your at a game and a fan of the other team tries to start something, let it go. Avoid areas you think are not safe. Become very aware of your surroundings. Watch closely for unsavory characters. Cross the street if you have to avoid them. It’s not a paranoid thing, it’s just things to do to avoid ANY conflict. My wife even says I’m much calmer on the highway since I’ve gotten my permit.

I have a wife and 3 kids. Their safety and well being is of the utmost importance to me. The second to the last thing I would want to do is to have to use my gun in self defense. The last thing I would want to do is not to have it when I needed it to protect my family. Just like a fire extinguisher, you always hope you never need to use it, but it’s there just in case.

If you don’t want to carry, that’s fine. I have no problem with that. But my decision to carry has absolutely no impact to you, and I pose absolutely no threat to anyone because of it.

On one hand, Miranda (#20) said that allowing people to carry on campus was a bad idea because “living in fear of getting shot is no way to live.” I’m a public high school teacher, and I live with that fear every day anyway. I live in a state where you can’t carry in many public places.

Does anyone know of a school shooting where guns were allowed? If not, maybe it is a deterrent. I’ve never heard of a story where one of these guys goes to a police station or a military base, places where it’s obvious guns will be found.

For purposes of full disclosure, I do have my concealed handgun license. I only carry it when I go on out-of-town trips without my husband. But I’ve also taken self-defense classes; my first option wouldn’t be the gun. I just refuse to be a victim.

But many of the comments made here that are against it make sense, too. At the end of the day, I don’t think there is a good answer. It’s obvious that we need to do a better job of teaching kids tolerance, protecting the kids who are “outsiders,” and reducing the stigma of mental illness so more people will seek help.

Besides, enacting stricter gun laws isn’t going to solve anything. A criminal/scumbag is going to carry a gun/knife/dangerous weapon no matter what laws are on the books.

…from the Tampa Bay Times yesterday.

A road rage shootout with kids onboard

Louis Davis was taking his kids to their Orange County elementary school Wednesday morning when he wound up co-starring in an escalating round of road rage that wound up with him shooting at another driver, that driver firing back and both men eventually being hauled off to jail, the Orlando Sentinel reports. According to the police report: On the way to the kids’ school, Davis got stuck behind a slow-moving van. When he tried to pass, the van’s driver, Victor Vilchez accelerated. Davis got ahead of him anyway, so Vilchez decided to rear­end him. Davis, who was driving his 6- and 11-year-old daughters, pulled a gun and started firing. Vilchez pulled a gun and returned fire. Davis, in what passes as good parenting in this story, then dropped his daughters off at a nearby home before chasing Vilchez at high speeds through the residential neighborhood and continuing to shoot until the van crashed into a passing vehicle. Davis, 40, and Vilchez, 44, both had valid permits to carry a con­cealed weapon.

In the Trolley Square shootings cited by blurb, there was an off-duty officer who engaged, and fortunately for him, he knew what he was doing or he would likely have been gunned down by the police too. They had no idea how many shooters were there. Also fortunate for him was there wasn’t a concealed weapons permit holder on the scene, who wasn’t trained to identify who is a threat and who isn’t, to gun down this officer.

The point being, citizens are not trained in how to engage in this sort of situation where they don’t endanger themselves or others, or even how to control their emotions to make rational decisions. Plus there is no requirement to be a good shot to get your permit. To add a few other gunman to the equation in like situations is unlikely to help anybody.

MY take is that the only benefit in concealed weapons is in the possibility of the psychological deterrent that a would-be shooter (whom I would assume falls into the aforementioned psychopathic category) faces, knowing that at least one student in the classroom may have a weapon. In reality, the likelihood of any student in that situation being able to fire back is extremely low, unless that student MAY have military training that compensates for his distaste in pulling the trigger.

But what the hey - if the possibility of concealed weapons being present actually keeps would-be shooters from popping a cap into fellow humans, I’m all for it. I just don’t think it does diddly-squat.