Polygamy and Utah: Hypocrisy Abounds
April 27th, 2008Must read:
Texas officials are protecting FLDS children from abuse – Salt Lake Tribune
The final paragraphs are indicative of a major problem within the FLDS ranks: institutionalized destruction of families and family units while simultaneously creating a culture of abuse. Who is supposed to step in in these cases?
Utah and Arizona have tread lightly in decades past, hoping to avoid the PR problems that face Texas now.
On Friday, Heather and I listened to an NPR reporter interviewing one of the women from the YFZ “ranch”. You’d have thought that for all the 19th century facade the polygamists adopt, she’d be flustered and ill-spoken. She dealt with the media like a GOP/Rove/Bush/Cheney pro; sticking to talking points and not answering the tough questions all while playing, rather expertly, the victim.
One of the weird things about religious subcultures is how opinions are formed and then wielded. I haven’t seen any poll data from Utah vs. the rest of the world about the actions of Texas Child Protective Services, but I would be willing to bet that most Mormons view the raid and subsequent placing of FLDS children in protective custody/foster care as an “atrocity” as does Mr. Firmage in the above commentary. While the raid and subsequent actions are difficult to imagine, somebody has to take a stand for the children. At some point, the reality of the situation has to trump our no longer valid high-minded notions of religious freedoms.
I agree with Ms. Chapman when she states:
Fathers indoctrinate their small children that their abuse or abusing is spiritual, while mothers prepare their female children for rape in a wedding dress. The reason children can’t tell officials who their parents are is that they are confused about their own identity and that of their parents.
A few years ago, I recommended Jon Krakauer’s “Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith” for its look at fundamentalism in the microcosm of Utah and how it destroys the fabric of society and the laws that form it. As this story in Texas of religion at its worst goes on, I can’t recommend this work highly enough as an intro into fundamentalist Mormonism.
The nagging question for me is that I wonder if certain parts of the YFZ culture don’t resemble the Mormon church itself circa 1840-1890. I didn’t say all of it, just certain parts.
How far should “religious freedom” go? When children are being treated like pawns in a power play, I think the religion has ceased being a religion and turned into something uglier and more horrifying. That we as a larger society have ignored it for so long only makes it more uncomfortable and more polarizing to discuss.
But discuss we must. o
Tags: FLDS, fubar, fundamentalism, polygamy, religion, religious nutburgers, YFZ Ranch
It’s nice to hear someone asking good questions on this case because for three weeks all I’ve heard is people who think they have all the answers, pro or con.
Have we seen “proof” of the abuse yet? Has it been proven yet that the call came from within the group, and not a prank from the lady in Colorado or similar?
I’m as anti-religious as the next guy, But Texas f’d this one up big time.
This smells eerily like Waco.. when “liberal” Clinton and Janet Reno killed “cultists.”
- A middle of the road dude.
Jon, I always appreciate your comments on this subject because I know they come from a relatively unique and knowledgeable perspective. I am also aware of and appreciate the balance you strive for on the subject of Mormonism itself, perhaps for family considerations. For many years I worked in the court system in Mohave County, Arizona, the county that encompasses Colorado City and other traditionally polygamist communities in Northern Arizona, and often wondered why law enforcement agencies seemed to ignore what was common knowledge — the “situation” going on up there; there were even members of county law enforcement agencies who were participants. It seemed so incongruous. The hypocrisy goes so deep. Really, the proverbial blind eye was at work here. I understand that there’s a county attorney in office now who has taken an aggressive approach to prosecution, but I think I understand that it’s a sticky issue, for obvious and not-so-obvious reasons, but religious freedom notwithstanding, geez, it’s the kids who have suffered and continue to suffer, generation after generation. I so believe in the freedom to believe in the deity of toast, if that’s where it takes you, and I don’t for a minute think that I have any answers here, but there’s got to be some kind of enforcement to those who are harming so many.
Being from Utah and living for a while in Page, AZ, rather near the Colorado City, AZ/Hilldale, UT communities of the FLDS. I am so frustrated by the lack of knowledge, especially that now perpetuated by the media. as to how these communities work. Yes, UT and AZ have kept up blinders hoping that no one would ask questions. I’ve actually meet these people, been to there towns and have actual friends from polygamist families, some within this particular sect, some from other sects, some still living the lifestyle and some who have broken free. It is ugly, to say the least. It has definitely moved far beyond the religious aspect, especially with this particular sect. Why is there not more reporting from those who have escaped, besides the soul lady that is on every media outlet. Are they still so afraid of this mafia-like society? I wouldn’t doubt it. Maybe TX went about it the wrong way. Maybe this was the only way to make it stop! I liken this treatment of women and children to that of the Saudi (and other muslim) communities. How have we been allowing this in the US in 2008!! It infuriates me! Where in the hell are the women’s and children’s groups screaming about civil rights? Where is the ACLU, when they could really be attaching themselves to a worthwhile cause for once, instead of defending the rights of pedophiles to have websites instructing other pedofiles on proper victim grooming? I blogged about this the other day myself at http://bunnieblog.com/2008/04/freaking-polygamists/
I don’t care how the hell they get those women and children out of there, just get them the hell out! The next step should be to prosecute the men of the sect for false imprisonment, brainwashing, child abuse, child molestation…it goes on and on.
One last thing…did you ever think that the Mormons can’t really go along with this TX incident and haven’t bothered to do anything about it in the past with their own polygamists because deep down they really still believe in the practice? They only gave it up when they wanted to be admitted to the Union, so miraculously (and timely) the prophet has a revolation? And they still believe they will have multiple wifes in heaven.
I appreciate your commentary as I’ve been following this story. I read Krakauer’s book last year (after watching Big Love on HBO) and agree that is an interesting introduction to the subject. I agree with everything you’ve said here. Unfortunately everyone on these ranches have been brainwashed and think that what they’re doing is for god.
From former members I’ve seen interviewed, it seems that Blood Atonement is still practiced within this sect, and I don’t believe you get more fundamental than that. In my research, I have discovered that the sins that require one’s blood to be spilled (because Christ’s blood just won’t cut it) are lying, adultery, theft, leaving the church, and many other things that the majority of the populace does not consider to be punishable by death.
There is freedom of religion, and there are also laws to protect the innocent.
It’s a thorny subject, but the children have no voice within the sect. Who then, will protect them?
I feel that Texas officials handled this with as much grace as they could muster. The children were not displayed, their identities are protected, and they are dealing with an all round difficult situation.
I’ve been watching this pretty closely, and I do believe these children have been raised in a culture of abuse. I do believe these women and children have to be cared for. The 2 things that have me worried the most is that these children and families are being lumped together by our legal system and each citizen/ each child deserves to be evaluated individually. Also, these children have been in ‘care’ for over 3 weeks and haven’t been evaluated. As a parent this is so scary to me. Over the past decade I’ve seen our rights so eroded and this just seems to be the pinnacle. There is no way in the entire state of Texas that they don’t have the manpower and resources to give these families the legal speed that they deserve as citizens.
Last Friday, Bill Maher commented that if the Pope had been the CEO of a giant daycare enterprise employing thousands of care workers who’d turned out to be pedophiles – and had covered up their abuses and moved abusers from daycare to daycare to avoid detection – he’d be in jail today. But because he’s the head of a religious organization he’s protected.
Certainly the children of this fundamentalist splinter group are traumatized by the separation from their mothers and families, but whose fault is that? The men who abused them and the women who enabled the abusers. The State has merely intervened to prevent further abuse from occurring.
Went to the Jazz game Thursday night and walked by the protesters yelling and holding signs about the “injustice” in Texas. And all I could think was…when is it EVER okay to marry underage girls to men twice their age so they can reproduce in bulk? For heaven’s sake people, it comes down to that. Yes, these people have civil rights. And yes, they need to be protected. But not at the expense of those children. They are the important part.
Being an atheist I’m naturally appalled with religion, of any sort, in general. Regardless I’ve learned to accept that humanity, with all its frailties, seems to need ‘direction’ and that it finds said direction through the creation of religion. Shame.
I firmly believe that the ultimate purpose of any religion is to control its members (and to convert nonbelievers so that they too may be controlled). The FLDS takes this core process to an extreme and through the process wreaks havoc upon the lives of its very members. Well, that’s not completely true. It wreaks havoc upon the lives of the females. As usual, not only is control the ultimate process, but control of the female of the species in particular. Notice how the men enjoy all the rank and privileges, while the women are treated like property.
This isn’t a religion. It’s not even a cult. It is simply men having their way with women without regard for those very women. Shame on the Mormon church. No. Fuck the Mormon church and all in it. They should be as embarrassed as should be the Catholics (of which I am the former) who have allowed their church to become the respite of pedophiles and perverts.
I think Mark said it best, right above me said it best.
I used to work in the field of preventing child abuse, and I don’t understand how anyone could consider pregnant teenagers married to men 2 and 3 times their age “okay” because of religion.
It just makes me gag.
I am astounded that the Mormon church, with all of its resources (both $$$ and knowledge and shared history) hasn’t stepped up to the plate here to help re-educate these women. They are more concerned with maintaining their public image of having had nothing to do with polygamy, ever. As we all know, it’s a false image.
Were I a fundamentalist Texan Baptist, perhaps, I’d be calling down hellfire on the “Prophet” for his neglect of these YFZ folks.
There’s no easy solution here, and it’s all very sad. I know it had to be done, but of course I feel for the children torn from their mothers. I also worry — remember Short Creek? Will this raid really have a long term affect of helping these people open their minds? I doubt it. I have a feeling that this “persecution” will only serve to strengthen the resolve of the true believers.
I think many of the posters have made excellent points here.
What I wanted to bring up/point out is that the public’s sympathy is being played upon by this sect. How? By simply pointing out that children are being taken from their mothers. I’m not innocent of being taken in by this ploy for a minute. It tears at my heart to think of the scared and sad children. It’s likely that the majority of these children are loved and well cared for. But what those who start to question the correctness of removing these children must remember is that these children are being cared for by people who are raising them into a culture where the women will likely be raped at a tender age and at best will live in an emotional hell for most of their lives. The boys will either foster this culture or be shunned from all that they have ever known. I just hope the public and the government will have the courage to break the cycle.
It’s not about religion anymore. It’s about sex – old men wanting to have sex with young girls. Disgusting!
Those poor babies. They’re innocent. Shame on anyone who is saying these child molesters are being persecuted. Child molesters and their enablers (the wives) are in the same boat in my opinion.
Go Jon for posting on this, repeatedly. Your point of view and insight as former LDS is appreciated. Keep it up.
More riffraff on national “news” shows tonight.
The problem is that those children have been stripped from their parents without any proof of wrongdoing. Those children are or will be severely scared by this experience, many for life.
What happened to guilty until proven innocent?
I’m not saying there was no wrong being done there, but where is the proof? Sure are a lot of people jumping on the blame and disgust bandwagon before its ready for passengers.
Underage marriages and pregnancies may be wrong by your (our) morals and societal standards, but it is practiced around the world without such disdain. Watch National Geographic channel some time. People should (but won’t) stop forcing THEIR OWN religious or religious based morals on others.
All I’m saying is, there is/was/would’ve been a much better way to deal with this. Texas f’d up. One wrong doesn’t make another right.
I was having drinks with my friend, a CPS worker who has been in San Angelo working on this case and I was asking her why these children were being taken away from their mothers when it is the men who are commiting the crimes. She basically informed me that it wasn’t about religion but about the cycle of rape of minor-aged girls in this “community.” While the “fathers” are obviously criminals, the mothers are just as guilty of neglect, at least the way CPS sees it. It was just interesting to get this insider perspective.
Look. Religious freedom is one thing. Sexual abuse of children is another. When I was a member of a sexual abuse survivors group I was shocked at how many survivors were the daughters of preachers or deacons or some other titled member of a church.
That’s all I have to say about this.
One of the principles of my religion is “to affirm and promote the inherent worth and diginity of every person”. It’s difficult to do in this case, I think CPS was right in removing the children because their human rights were being violated. They were being brain-washed into a culture that subjugates women and believes in child marriage. That’s just not in step with the laws and general views of our country. Freedom of religion is a basic principle, but children don’t get to choose their religion usually.
I grew up in south Texas with unusual parents that were a bit anti-organized religion… former Catholic father. They always told me to make up my mind about religion when I was older. I missed out on some basics that our society takes for granted. I tell people that I learned the Christmas story from Charlie Brown and it’s true. In my 30s, I discovered a group of people who think like I do… the Unitarian Universalists. I was amazed to find people that accepted others regardless of theology and felt that we could all worship together… even atheists. My personal theology has evolved over the past 15 years that I’ve been a UU. But I find being a part of the UU community has made me stronger and more able to speak out about my beliefs on sometimes controversial subjects. I still don’t tell too many people at work that I’m a Democrat… but hey, I work for a Dallas based conservative Fortune 500 company. Just some thoughts for you, Heather and your readers. For more on the UU think see their website http://www.uua.org
Did anyone see Larry King Live when he interviewed some of the women from the YFZ Ranch? There were 6 or 7 seated, but only 3 spoke. They were definitely “programmed”. When Larry asked how their husbands felt, no one could give him an answer. They only said (all 3 of them) that their only concern was getting the children back. After the commercial break, one of the women then replied that of course her husband wants the children back.
Another one of the women led a tour of one of the dormitories. She showed the large kitchen and dining hall, and then some of the bedrooms. Some bedrooms had a double bed where a grown woman slept and twin, bunk or cribs where younger children slept. She referred to them “some girls”, not as the children of the grown woman who slept there. Other rooms had twin beds where older girls slept. It was definitely a women’s dorm – not a man, or any masculine items – in sight. I don’t know where reproduction took place, but it definitely wasn’t in those rooms.
The women don’t have a clue about “Honey, I’m home!” There is no family unit there. I feel it’s nothing more than a breeding facility for future FLDS members. The women are nothing more than concubines, really. They’re enslaved by the threat of burning in hell if they don’t submit to their “husbands” and reproduce.
And the men? What a deal they’ve got! When sex with one wife starts to become routine, he gets a new one, a virgin, who won’t know how really bad he is in bed.
Texas has done the right thing by stepping in and removing the children from the situation while they sort everything out. It is the responsibility of government to protect those who cannot protect themselves, and these girls must be protected. If law enforcement were investigating a family for abusing a child, you can bet the child would be taken from the situation…not only for protection, but also to be questioned privately, away from those he or she might fear.
Thanks for posting about this, Jon. It’s a very important topic, and you have an interesting take on it.
As harsh as it might sound, I have absolutely no sympathy for the women of the Texas FLDS compound; it was beyond irritating to tune into the media and watch those mothers wring their hands and snivel for their children as they purposely dodged illuminating inquiries right and left. The way they’re “answering questions” and “cooperating” with authorities amounts to nothing but a vague, sanitized illusion of conjugal bliss set on repeat to charm the empathetic. It’s extremely troubling to note that both the women and their multitudes of children suffer from identity crises and further drag these legal processes by capriciously changing names and pointing out parents. The genetic tests just to mix and match them all will be a bitch, politically and financially.
I’m a fresh face of seventeen years, blessed without any religious influences despite living in a Mormon-entrenched neighborhood since junior high (one church is just across the street), so I’m not going to presume exactly what happened within the cult, but I’ve done enough research to know that polygamy usually entails women as being nothing more than breeding stock, male supremacy, perpetual abuse (sexual, mental, emotional, physical), and brainwashing the gullible into sacrificing everything in the name of corrupt religion and God. These women who seem to be blatantly lying to the media about the number of plural wives and underage mothers and who most likely knew about whatever abuse which might have been transpiring behind closed doors don’t deserve any compassion, at least not from me.
So, regardless if Texas Child Protective Services manage to conjure up a solid case against the compound (for every child), it’s encouraging to see that the issue of polygamy has been stirred into national attention; hopefully, some people won’t be won over so easily by tears and parental instinct. In all, I hope everyone decides to do his or her own investigation into the nature behind not only polygamy, but also fundamentalism.
Though those children will probably be scarred for the rest of their lives, regardless of this particular experience, I’ll agree with Kevin Smith on the fact that these cultists are being tried “guilty until proven innocent,” which–dare I say it?–is rather un-American according to our constitutional rights. I have no doubts about the harms of polygamy, but “proof of wrongdoing” would be a better support for Texas authorities rather than their nebulous claims of child abuse at this point in time.
But the whole deal with it being “accepted” in other parts of the world? We don’t live in those other parts; we live in a nation that respects civil liberties (most times) and the right to not being abused or oppressed or brainwashed into thinking that letting women live out their lives as fatted cows forced to lie (or worse, convinced) that the polygamist “lifestyle” is perfectly healthy for its participants.
As an outraged agnostic/weak atheist, I will always be appalled by any religion and its teachings (moderate religion is hypocrisy), but the protection of child molesters and sexual fiends far outweighs my disgust for the fundamentalist community (and the Vatican).
Whatever results from this abuse of “religious freedom,” I hope that everyone who decides to sit up and pay attention will come out of it all with a little more knowledge of the effects of religion on society and society on religion.
(By the way, the whole Waco scenario? Shooting members trying to escape that fire was immoral, but try comparing that to the horrendous policies of David Koresh and see if you can still pull down the blinds.)
Thanks for listening to me, a mere high-schooler, rant and rave. Also, Jon? Heather rocks my socks off
Thank you for your input on such a divisive subject (if only you could talk to my mother!).
Just an addition:
The post above was mainly concerned with the polygamist practices revolving around the FLDS branch of Mormonism. I know that a lot of people who are against the YFZ ranch don’t seem to be phased much by polygamy that doesn’t involve child marriage–the family behind Big Love, for instance (which I haven’t seen). Now THAT is something I should look into.
But for the moment–what do y’all think about “consensual” polygamy? Does anyone have references to communities who practice this successfully without inadvertently screwing up their children? Do modern civilizations even need polygamy? And what about polyandry? For those who have been involved in or with or have been insiders to polygamy–what are the main reasons that people enter into polygamous relationships: is it for pragmatic purposes or for love? And is it truly possible to love multiple persons as deeply as the conventional spouse one pledges to support and care for enough to stumble through marriage (and hopefully avoid divorce)? And if not, doesn’t polygamy undermine marriage? As for as I can tell, if it’s not for economic benefits it’s for breeding children by the numbers.
I’ve heard that many women who practically throw themselves into polygamous marriages do so because they would rather marry a rich man with other wives than be subject to being a “poor man’s” bride. Doesn’t that make polygamy rather superficial?
People have underage sex and untraditional sexual relationships all the time (menage-a-trois), but I can’t see that many of them are serious enough to “marry” and suffer more than one spouse based purely on how great they are beneath the sheets. Most say that whatever two, or even three, four, or more people want to do behind closed doors is none of their business if it doesn’t violate preconceived moral issues–like sexual abuse and child brides, but polygamy transcends sex sex sex and truly becomes an often insular “lifestyle” (real, defined lifestyles–unlike the bullshit dribbling from those denouncing homosexuals).
How “normal” is polygamy? Skepticism will define me for the moment, but I’d love to hear anyone else’s opinion (provided that they have read through this equally lengthy post).
Watching all of the press coverage on this case is kind of making up for the giant hiatus before the next season of HBO’s “Big Love” begins. I kid.
But seriously folks, this whole situation is whack.
Since this story broke, I’ve found it quite interesting to notice LDS members staunchly defending their faith and reiterating the fact that Mormons are not in the same bed as the polygamous FLDS members, yet my best friend from homel says many of her peers and friends at BYU refuse to acknowledge the vast differences between Muslims and Fundamentalist (extremist) Muslims. My, what an exquisite run-on sentence I just busted out!
Maybe they are the outliers, but I’m just sayin’. Interesting.
There’s an ongoing societal tendency to paint all mothers as saints who can do no wrong. Some of this is fueled by feminism which – as much as I hate to say it because I am a feminist – tends to excuse women from responsibility for their actions. Mothers are capable of all kinds of abuse and violence. Many pedophiles couldn’t get a foot in the door without mothers giving them access, and how many mothers know and turn a blind eye? Plenty, unfortunately. Many children are abused and even murdered by fucked up mothers. Clearly many of the women in this cult believe it’s alright for men to have sex with their kids. That should mean they have no right to parent, but instead people sympathize and call the women victims. Why? Because the women look like sad sacks in their Victorian prairie wear? I have no doubt many of these women are victims but if, because of their indoctrination, they cease to be able to care for their children appropriately they shouldn’t have access to them. This rule applies to other mothers. Why doesn’t it apply to these ones?