Polygamy and Utah: Hypocrisy Abounds
April 27th, 2008Must read:
Texas officials are protecting FLDS children from abuse - Salt Lake Tribune
The final paragraphs are indicative of a major problem within the FLDS ranks: institutionalized destruction of families and family units while simultaneously creating a culture of abuse. Who is supposed to step in in these cases?
Utah and Arizona have tread lightly in decades past, hoping to avoid the PR problems that face Texas now.
On Friday, Heather and I listened to an NPR reporter interviewing one of the women from the YFZ “ranch”. You’d have thought that for all the 19th century facade the polygamists adopt, she’d be flustered and ill-spoken. She dealt with the media like a GOP/Rove/Bush/Cheney pro; sticking to talking points and not answering the tough questions all while playing, rather expertly, the victim.
One of the weird things about religious subcultures is how opinions are formed and then wielded. I haven’t seen any poll data from Utah vs. the rest of the world about the actions of Texas Child Protective Services, but I would be willing to bet that most Mormons view the raid and subsequent placing of FLDS children in protective custody/foster care as an “atrocity” as does Mr. Firmage in the above commentary. While the raid and subsequent actions are difficult to imagine, somebody has to take a stand for the children. At some point, the reality of the situation has to trump our no longer valid high-minded notions of religious freedoms.
I agree with Ms. Chapman when she states:
Fathers indoctrinate their small children that their abuse or abusing is spiritual, while mothers prepare their female children for rape in a wedding dress. The reason children can’t tell officials who their parents are is that they are confused about their own identity and that of their parents.
A few years ago, I recommended Jon Krakauer’s “Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith” for its look at fundamentalism in the microcosm of Utah and how it destroys the fabric of society and the laws that form it. As this story in Texas of religion at its worst goes on, I can’t recommend this work highly enough as an intro into fundamentalist Mormonism.
The nagging question for me is that I wonder if certain parts of the YFZ culture don’t resemble the Mormon church itself circa 1840-1890. I didn’t say all of it, just certain parts.
How far should “religious freedom” go? When children are being treated like pawns in a power play, I think the religion has ceased being a religion and turned into something uglier and more horrifying. That we as a larger society have ignored it for so long only makes it more uncomfortable and more polarizing to discuss.
But discuss we must. o
Tags: FLDS, fubar, fundamentalism, polygamy, religion, religious nutburgers, YFZ Ranch
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April 28th, 2008 at 3:50 am
I have to concur about the Krakauer book, Jon. In fact, I’ve gone so far as to tell friends that it is one of the best books (of any type, on any subject) that I’ve read in years and years.
It isn’t “light” reading - lots of footnotes and references to refer to while reading - but it is very well worth the time investment.
Having very good friends growing up who are Mormon (not fundamentalist) and as an adult, I also found that the book enlighted for me some of the more basic tenants and history of Mormonism as a whole, which was also quite interesting.
Also, nosie up there who is only 17? Lots of thought provoking writing for any age, let alone 17.
April 28th, 2008 at 4:33 am
Noise, are you sure you’re only in high school? Wow.
I watched something on You Tube, an interview with an older woman who was a wife in a plural marriage. Not one that involved minor children as wives. This was all consenting adults. And what she had to say made a lot of sense really.
She had the time and space to go to college, have a career AND have children, because there were sister wives to take care of her children. When asked about jealousy, she said take this out of the bedroom and into the kitchen and living room where most of your life happens and jealousy becomes less of an issue. To her, the pros far outweighed the cons.
Having sex with underage children, brainwashing, all the horrible things that may be going on there should not be allowed to continue. I agree. What worries me is the government’s involvement. When we here about sexual abuse in Catholic churches, we don’t storm the local church. We prosecute the offender. This is America afterall and religious freedom is one of the things we hold dear. Where do we draw the line? If the government finds out there is underage sex going on in the Presbyterian church, should they then be allowed to come and take our children?
This is a very complicated subject to say the least. Thank you Jon for putting it on the table.
April 28th, 2008 at 8:12 am
When we here about sexual abuse in Catholic churches, we don’t storm the local church. We prosecute the offender. This is America after all and religious freedom is one of the things we hold dear. Where do we draw the line? If the government finds out there is underage sex going on in the Presbyterian church, should they then be allowed to come and take our children?
It’s a little different when rape and forced marriage are a pretty much tenet of the religion, don’t you think? If Presbyterianism had, as the FLDS enclaves do, a religion-wide practice of underage forced marriage and rape, I think the government would have a keen interest in the safety of those children. When the Roman Catholic sex abuse came to light, it wasn’t about priests who lived with children, forcing them to become breeding stock at an illegally young age. That, in each of its individual cases, is one priest in a given parish sexually abusing usually a series of children; the solution is to take him away. It’s a vastly different situation. The FLDS members live together in an insular community where rape and forced marriage is widespread, accepted, and possibly even expected. Their parents are complicit; the leaders of the “religion” are complicit; and in a number of places where the FLDS live, the local law enforcement is complicit. There is no help for these children within the community; help must come from outside it.
April 28th, 2008 at 8:18 am
I forgot to say thanks, Jon, for your continuing coverage and commentary. I’ve been watching this unfold, scared that it’s all just going to be thrown out in the end, and these kids will be sent back to further abuse. Especially when I see the disgusting rape apologetics coming from some commentators (not here) on the subject.
Also, sorry for the double-posting and my rampant semicolon abuse in that last comment.
April 28th, 2008 at 8:20 am
I do believe SOMETHING must be done about the child molesters that are among the flock. (Not saying every man in there is one by the way)
I believe that everyone in the U.S. should have the right to practice any religion they like..On the same token, everyone in the U.S. should have to follow the laws of the U.S. (especially the ones that involve protecting children.
But, from what I’ve gathered these cults thrive on fear..They convince the flock that the outside is bad - the outsiders will arrest all of us - you’ll be separated from your family, etc. And I’m afraid that raids like this will be interpreted by other polygamists as an attack from the ‘mean old outsiders’ to destroy their religion rather than to protect children.
I don’t know how it can be handled differently. . I just wish we could decriminilize it and then then there would be no reason for them to barracade themselves up like this. They would be more out in the open and not have this fear of the outside world. I believe if it were out in the open and at least accepted by law enforcement there would be much more reporting of crimes against children without fear of punishment for their lifestyle..
April 28th, 2008 at 8:28 am
I’d like to know with what ACTUAL CRIMES each of the FLDS mothers has been charged, to justify taking their children from them. It LOOKS like a witchhunt, based on hysteria, speculation, and disagreement with their religion. Is there any EVIDENCE that ILLEGAL acts have been committed by these women?
How is DNA (except that obtained by a rape kit, which wasn’t used) going to divulge the alleged abuse and abuser of a young child? Having a weird or minority religion is NOT a crime. Is it illegal to give birth as a teen? Is there a legal limit on the number of children one can bear? Is Texas targeting EVERY woman who gives birth without a marriage license, or just the ones whose friends and family dress funny? WHAT did these women actually DO?
WHO gets to decide WHICH religion is abusive and criminal? Teaching children to love, praise, and obey the sadistic Biblical Jesus-God, who was conceived via the virtual rape of a virginal teenage girl (at most); drowned, plagued, and slaughtered millions of people (MORE than Hitler); had his own self/son brutally beaten and executed; and who repeatedly commanded his followers to kidnap, enslave, rape, torture, and kill other people; (yes, all of that IS in the Bible) - could be considered abusive - and that includes ALL Christians. I personally think Christianity is sick, but I would NEVER advocate CRIMINALIZING Christians just because they teach their children to worship a bloodthirsty, killer God. Exactly WHEN does brainwashing and devotion to God become illegal? Who is next?
IF there were actual CRIMES committed, then the perpetrators should be charged and have their day in court. If NOT, then they should be left alone and have their children - even if they’re weird.
April 28th, 2008 at 8:30 am
As some one that grew up Mormon, what I have learned of the FLDS is deeply deeply offensive to me. I grew up outside of Utah (an Air Force brat), my take on the religion that I believe in is one of choice–above all you are given free agency and YOU must choose right from wrong not be forced to believe and adhere to God’s laws. In the FLDS sect, I see power being horribly horribly abused. While I don’t excuse the adult members of responsibility, I do see that their free agency has been stripped by those in ultimate power. They were isolated and brainwashed by men (or who knows women might have been involved as well) that made sure that their followers were pliant and in most cases inbred.
The child abuse and rape is to me of course repugnant. The idea that woman and children in the FLDS sect are traded around like chattel is also deeply offensive. In my upbringing in the LDS church, great emphasis was placed on the family unit….it’s importance now and in the afterlife.
What I see in the FLDS Church (a sect removed from the LDS Church by 100 years and is no more like the LDS Church than Satanic Worshippers are like Wiccans), is a vile affront to the way LDS practise and other “polygamous” families work.
I have no problem with polygamy, (while I do not wish to practise it) if is practised by truly consenting adults.
I live in San Antonio, Texas, and while I am wary and concerned for these children (I hope that they are treated kindly and not told THEY are bad people, and not lost in the System), I am very glad they are off of the Ranch and are now given the ability to learn to someday choose the path they wish to follow.
As for the Mormon Church getting involved: it’s not an organisation known for overt charity/kindness. Most of what they do are quiet acts of service. When have they ever advertised in Mass Medias that they sent hordes of food trucks to Katrina afflicted areas? I am sure they are involved, they just aren’t putting out press releases that they are. The baptist charities and catholic charities are doing a lot of work as well to help these poor children. And really the LDS Church has no responsibility to police the FLDS Church as the FLDS Church ARE NOT part of the Mormon Church. But I am sure they ARE helping because that’s the right thing to do. ‘Course I could be wrong, the Church might be staying away from this because of our distant ties to this sect are a source of embarrassment–having something THIS HORRIFYING being any way associated with the Church.
Thanks Jon–I was wondering when you would open a discussion on this very troubling issue.
April 28th, 2008 at 8:34 am
I come from a very religious family, you might say; fanatics. Since I come from a background like this I can tell you that these mothers are indeed victims and will have to be ‘reprogrammed’ before they can understand the wrongs done to their children. Right now they are being commended for upholding gods law by defending their way of life and their men. They are entrenched in a way of life that we dont understand, we cant comprehend. Their way is the only way they know.
My hope now is that Texas does the right thing and brings in the best psychotherapists to reprogram and rehabilitate these children in a non threatening manner so that they have a chance at a normal life. Being yanked away from their lives is going to have a huge impact on their future dealings with life.
Being a person who does not walk in the religious path my parents walk, I can tell you that this road toward normalicy is all foreign. It will take much time for them to acclimate.
My heart goes out to them all.
April 28th, 2008 at 9:01 am
The article was great and right on, but some of the comments were mind-boggling!
“A lawyer for the Children said on the Today Show, the lawyers are also being kept from the Children, and do not know where they are. This is massive kidnapping.”
“Now would be a good time to face reality. The first reality is that FLDS enemies lie. For example, the phone calls reported to have been from an abused 16 year-old living within the Eldorado FLDS community, now appears to have been from a non-FLDS 33 year-old in Colorado. The second reality to face is that the FLDS appears much less sinister when compared to the larger American society.”
“The actions of the Texas state government with regard to the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints (FLDS) has put it on a course toward disaster. Texas is like the Titanic headed for an iceberg called the Genocide.”
” All parents are child abusers.”
Now if those aren’t statements of brain-washed cult members, I don’t know what are.
April 28th, 2008 at 9:39 am
Hey Jon,
I’ve lived in Utah all of my life and I’m Mormon. How do Mormons feel? I would hope they mostly are glad the children are out. I am. I’m always surprised by your comments regarding how Mormons feel.
I for one am glad they got the children out. I think they are doing the right thing.
April 28th, 2008 at 9:55 am
I think the most interesting thing to come out of this whole mess is the Mormon church’s scramble to try to separate themselves from the FLDS. The reason I find it so amusing is that the Mormon Church tries so hard to be accepted by the greater Christian community while they are unwilling to accept the Trinity, still believe in polygamy in the afterlife through the practice of sealing men to multiple women in temple ceremonies, believe that Jesus visited North America after his resurrection and that its members can one day become gods and rule their own planet. Now those beliefs are about as far removed from conventional Christianity as you can get. Yet the Mormon church and its members continue to be baffled at their lack of acceptance in this community. So why does the Mormon church find it so strange that some people not as familiar with the practices of the LDS church and the FLDS church would make a fairly obvious parallel between the two organizations given that they both share the Book of Mormon, and both consider Joseph Smith to be a profit? The Mormon Church needs to realize you can’t separate yourself from your history on one hand and still worship the profits who once preached this lifestyle on the other.
April 28th, 2008 at 10:03 am
The children are most definitely innocent, but the mothers and fathers are not. They allow abuse, they committed the abuse, and just remember abuse does not only exist as physical. I am sure they were loved, in only the most righteous conditional way you can with 18 children. Some of these mothers on the news could not even get it straight as to the plea for help, please send my children back, our children, my children, i mean, our children” whose children are they, I know it can get confusing, just remember, you gave birth to them, didn’t you?
They could have never prepared the Texas legal system for this many children in their protection, should we ever be prepared for something like this?
I think they will have a better life, it may not look that way now, but compared to where they would be in less than 10 years, they may actually be able to go to school, play in the park, and not be pregnant at 12.
April 28th, 2008 at 10:11 am
I live in Mesa, AZ with a high population of Mormons. I am not mormon but it is very interesting to talk with my neighbors about what they think of this situation. Most do feel that the kids should have never been removed from their homes and that the government is over stepping. They also seem to feel that plural marriges themselves are not a problem and that the only thing wrong with this FLDS cult is that they sexually abuse children. Hmm. Nevermind the brain washing, physical abuse, emotional abuse, and financial drain on our economy for paying for them to be on welfare and pay for their Warren Jeffs run schools.
April 28th, 2008 at 10:27 am
Freedom brings with it an obligation to responsibly follow the laws of the land and to respect the rights of others.
Polygamy is illegal in the US. I don’t care if it’s done by a man who calls himself a profit (sorry, prophet) and tries to hide behind his so-called priesthood, or by a man who calls himself a sheik, and tries to hide behind a robe.
FLDS followers could go to any one of a dozen or so countries where polygamy and child brides are perfectly legal–even encouraged.
But if they choose to stay on US soil, they cannot practice polygamy nor marry their underage girls, and should be prosecuted for refusing to protect their own children from harm.
While the prosecutors are at it, they should make sure to convict the mothers and fathers for knowingly committing welfare fraud under the group’s own name of “bleeding the beast”–ie: taking from the evil outsiders –you and me–who do not share their faith.
I want them charged for not naming fathers with significant financial assets, who live in the household and by law would need to contribute to the child’s upkeep to receive benefits they are not entitled to. I want them charged with theft by deception, for lying and stating they receive no financial assiatnce either from a spouse or the religious group as a whole, in order to receive AFDC and other taxpayer-supplied benefits.
If they received farm subsidies from the US government, but did not adhere to the practices and rules required to obtain them, I want them charged with that.
I want their not-for-profit status removed, permanently. And the people who are listed on the official papers as those in charge under the non-profit, should be jailed for fraud and should have to pay back taxes on the profits of the for-profit businesses they front for.
Any person with a license or state certificate, or public servant, ie: police officer, teacher, certified heath care giver, or other public official, found to have conspired with or to have enabled these people to operate in that county for so long, should be named as co-conspirators for the abuse charges.
If that means teachers, who are also parents, within the FLDS group itself, who homeschooled their own kids along with others–and who may have teaching certificates from TX or elsewhere–lose their licenses to teach permanently, so be it.
Same with medics, nurses, doctors, lawyers or anyone else within the group who must adhere to state standards, who happen to be FLDS and can be shown to have known about and ignored this problem. They do not get a pass on following the law because they think they are more spiritual or worthy.
Track the money, shut off the illegal entitlements. Prosecute ALL the offenders. Close them down.
And folks, the reason we went after Koresh at Waco is NOT because he was a weird religious guy. That’s allowed in the US. What’s NOT allowed is gun running and illegal use of stockpiled weapons, child abuse and domestic violence–all of which the Branch Davidian leadership and David Koresh himself were guilty of.
April 28th, 2008 at 10:34 am
@bookratt, well said!
April 28th, 2008 at 10:53 am
Bookratt just said everything I wanted to post. It’s amazing how many people are not looking beyond what the 45 second blurb on the news states about these sects. The amount of financial corruption being perpetrated is astounding,,, and we’re the ones bankrolling it.
April 28th, 2008 at 11:05 am
A more interesting point is how this LDS splinter group is being procucuted for their “religious beliefs” while (for instance) Islam is being accommodated for many of the same. I wonder if their defense lawyers will explore the similarities.
April 28th, 2008 at 11:23 am
I hope that they aren’t punished for practicing a religion of their choice - only crimes involving children.. otherwise that’s stepping in a lot of shit.
April 28th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
The removal of the children from the ranch was done according to the Texas Family Code. There continues to be people saying they are “guilty before proven innocent”. According to the family code if a child is in imminent risk of harm they can be removed from the home, there is no mention of guilt or innocence; it is totally based on the safety of the child. CPS is not a criminal agency they are not involved in the criminal prosecution of anyone, their only concern is the welfare of children. If parents are not willing to protect their children from abuse someone has to step in and do it for them.
This is not about religion, this is about child abuse. This new media blitz by the sect is a smoke screen to the true issues. They are attempting to get as many people to feel sorry for them as possible to divert attention from the fact that they have allowed men to marry their children and rape them. I understand mothers and fathers missing and wanting their children back, I have removed very few children in the past that the parents did not feel the same way. But the fact that these women have refused to protect their young girls from abuse makes them just as at fault as the men who have perpetrated the children.
I don’t think anyone knows how the situation is going to pan out, but I do know that right now these children are safe and protected.
April 28th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Poplygamy in itself is fine to me. If a person wants a few dozen wives, fine. However, you cannot marry a person under 18 or take any state funding.
I also find it interesting that people are appauld by the treatment of the FLDS compound in Texas. If the police recieved a tip that someone was being abused within the compound, even if it is false, they went in under good faith and any illegal activity found is justified.
I think this whole thing needed to happen earlier and I hope other states begin looking into the practices of polygamy if one exists in their district.
Once all the DNA tests are completed it frightens me of the inbreeding that will be uncovered.
April 28th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
I just wanted to quickly say - I am LDS and all of the LDS people I have talked to, without exception, do NOT see this as an “atrocity”. They have all felt that these children are being abused and that the abuse must be stopped. I’m not sure what they think about the method, but the number one thing they say is that there is awful abuse going on in the FLDS and it needs to be stopped. I just wanted to let that be known since a lot of people outside of the LDS community like to assume what those of us in the community will do. I’m sure there are some LDS people that think it is an atrocity, but I that is due to individual opinion variance rather than LDS doctrine.
Also, as a former BYU student, I did not meet one single person during my 4+ years there that was ridiculous enough to equate Muslims with Extremist Muslims. Come on people. Of course there are probably a couple of nutjobs out of the 35.000+ students there, but you will find nutjobs at every college - guaranteed. I know I should let these comments ride, but it is hard when your alma mater is constantly misrepresented by people who don’t know very much about the school. I know it’s not perfect, but we are not stupid, we know the difference between true Islam and radical Islam as well as anyone else.
On a different note, I heard a former FLDS member - a woman - describe all of the members of the FLDS community as victims of the system. She was sexually abused from a young age and she still called the abusing men “victims”. I was pretty surprised. I’m sure there is some truth to that, but I still think we’ve have our free will and ability to make choices - she did, she escaped even though she also was a product of the society. It made me think…
April 28th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Bookratt, you should tack your post on the door of every law enforcement office in Arizona, Utah, and Texas! Very well said. You go, girl!
April 28th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
I no longer live in Utah, so I don’t know what they are saying on the news there, but I am also LDS and agree with what Audrey said. I don’t see this as an atrocity.
April 28th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
This - from Yahoo news:
A total of 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 are in state custody after a raid 3 1/2 weeks ago at the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado. Of those girls, 31 either have children or are pregnant, said Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar. Two of those are pregnant now, he said; it was unclear whether either of those two already have children.
“It shows you a pretty distinct pattern, that it was pretty pervasive,” he said.
State officials took custody of all 463 children at the ranch controlled by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, saying a pattern of teen girls forced into underage “spiritual” marriages and sex with much older men created an unsafe environment for the sect’s children.
Under Texas law, children under the age of 17 generally cannot consent to sex with an adult. A girl can get married with parental permission at 16, but none of these girls is believed to have a legal marriage under state law.
April 28th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
Agree totally Jon.
and frankly the more i see and read and hear of organised religion, the more I am convinced that there NOTHING more ugly or horrifying.
well done on taking a stand and being willing to discuss this.
Ngaire In Brisbane Australia