We’ll Kick You Out if You Disagree
September 29th, 2008Mormon Church: “We encourage all members to vote. We are neutral. p.s. We are lying, particularly the part about staying neutral.”
Member: “I disagree with that political stance. I’m going to say so on my website and encourage other Mormons to write letters about their own disagreement.”
Mormon Church: “You disagree? See you in church court (see also). P.S., we have our own pro-Proposition 8 website. P.P.S., our ad claims that acceptance of gay marriage is “mandatory. P.P.S. our site is run by these guys (via). ”
fini
To my Mormon friends: I feel for you. This can’t be easy. Still, you have a voice. I encourage you to use it to stop your church from abusing it’s tax exempt status as well as to stop lying about how it handles politics.
Other voices:
Mormons for Proposition 8, particularly this post.
Mormons for Marriage
lds4gaymarriage
If you live in California, are you opposing Prop 8 or for it? If your church asked you to support something you disagreed with, what would you do? o
Tags: church and state, gay marriage, lds, mormon, mormon politics, proposition 8
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September 29th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Ex-Mormon from California voting against 8. I can’t even comprehend being a member of a church that would tell me how to think or vote. I stay away from churches in general.
September 29th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Christian from California voting HELLZ NO. I have gay friends and if they want to get married, they should be allowed to. It’s an equality issue. Not to mention, it’s none of my business!
September 29th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
During the last Oregon general election, the church had a “do as your conscience dictates” letter read over the podium, which I took to mean I could do however I deemed appropriate when it came to our state’s Gay Marriage Measure.
This Prop 8 situation is much more ugly and makes me so much more uncomfortable. I’m interested in what my fellow black-hearted liberal LDS members think.
September 29th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
This makes me so angry I want to spit nails in the direction of Salt Lake City. I’m going to just calm down for a bit, go back and read that petition (on sign for something) again in a calmer state, and in all likelihood sign it.
My bishop will hear an earful when he’s told to call me in about the petition I’ve signed.
September 29th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
I am an LDS member vehemently opposed to Prop 8. I’ve talked to my bishop about my concerns, who says I am not the only one who feels this way. Right now, I feel like this is the issue that will drive me away from the church. So be it. Just as the church teaches that something mostly good with a little bit of bad shouldn’t be tolerated (books, music, movies, etc), I can’t tolerate this bigotry coming from the leadership in an otherwise pretty good church.
September 29th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
First, let me say that I think marriage is a union between two people regardless of gender and that I will always vote to extend this right in just such a manner.
I attend a Christian church in Texas and have recently been told by my pastor that he won’t use his pulpit to promote any particular party or candidate. Nevertheless, he enumerates his opinions on issues like gay marriage and abortion every election year and then wonders why people call Christians hypocrites.
I think each church should say what they want regarding any issue that matters to that church. As much as I’d like to say that a church should not excommunicate a member due to his or her political ideals, I think it is the church’s responsibility to do so when necessary. A church ought to take steps to separate itself from anything or anyone who radically opposes their professed faith. Think of Branch Davidians and the Seventh Day Adventists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh), and you might see what I mean.
September 29th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
I live in CA and I am wholly opposed to Prop 8. I’m not LDS; actually, I’m not with any church at all. If I were, I certainly wouldn’t support something I’m against if my church said I “had to,” but then, that might be why I left the Catholic a long time ago.
Thank you for posting these links. The Mormon church isn’t something I know a great deal about, and much of it is just based on what I hear, so I appreciate learning about what’s going on from someone who knows.
September 29th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
I’ve been watching this post/comments throughout the afternoon and was planning on keeping silent (what’s the point, really) but after reading a few of the comments I think it’s time I chimed in.
First of all, I’m a councilor in a bishopric and have read a few of these letters from the First Presidency over the pulpit. I usually take joy in declaring that the Church is politically neutral as I am a black hearted liberal. This would probably bring me more joy if I were in more of a Republican ward, but as fate would have it a majority of my ward are registered Democrats.
Second, this issue was a difficult time for me back in 2000 when I lived in San Francisco as it is now. For the record, my bishop never asked for money to support Prop 22 nor did he participate. My guess is that he was a conscientious objector of sorts. I’m a little troubled that this is even an issue now as the voice of the people spoke in 2000. Not to sound all Republican here, but it bothers me when the voice of the people are overturned by judges. Where’s the democracy there?
What bothers me about your perception/description of this incident Jon is that it appears as though every Mormon of dissenting voice will be subject to disciplinary council. That is simply not true. I’m guessing that where this man drew the attention of his leaders is when he asked for others to write in. This would constitute something of a mob-like action and we all know that angry Mormons are a tough lot to deal with when mobs are formed. Kidding.
I’m also guessing that this isn’t the first brush with dissent that this man has had. Quite frankly, I’ve sat in disciplinary councils that make this man’s actions a drop in the bucket. Also for the record, those same councils yielded a positive result and aided those being counciled in a better path of life.
Also what bothers me is that the Church’s tax exempt status should be in question. I heard this in 2000 and I thought the argument was as hollow then as I do now. The Church hold’s the right to voice it’s opinion just as much as any other organized body. Besides, most people really have no idea how much service the Church provides for communities and takes a HUGE hit off of government in terms of welfare assistance, after-school programs and such.
Lastly @Marua:
If you’d like to know more about what Mormons believe then I’d suggest visiting mormon.org as it’ll spell out exactly what Mormons believe.
So, everybody calm down, take a breath and let a little common sense take over for a minute. Nobody’s being forced to vote for something they don’t feel they should vote for. I signed two temple recommends yesterday and in the interview there was nothing new added to the standard questions that have been the same for the last few years. You do have your agency. You can vote how your conscious dictates.
September 29th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
As a non- religious, but spiritual, individual, I plan to vote against Prop. 8. The hatred and fear that this particular topic has infused into political commentary in this State is frightening. And the mis-information is very abundant. Unfortunately, I wasn’t home the day the “Yes on 8″ visitors came to my door- I would have liked to have had a conversation with them to try to understand their beliefs and fears. Anyone who truly believes that the concept of marriage will in some way be destroyed by this basic right must not be very secure in their own heterosexual marriage.
September 29th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
It’s so much easier not being a Mormon (or Catholic or any other “on” or “ic” or “ist”) i.e. not having to be beholden to patriarchal bigoted assholes and their arbitrary rules. The problem with Churches of most stripes is they never permit their members to be full blown adults.
September 29th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
I know that lots of people have pointed this out, but really? The LDS church has no credibility what.so.ever. claiming that they want to restrict marriage to a union of “one man and one woman”.
I mean, they still teach that polygamy is practiced in heaven, albeit in a sort of lefthanded way.
What does polygamy have to do with gay marriage? Not much, except that to endorse the first (special rights for LDS men!), while opposing the second (no rights fer teh gays!) is hypocritial at best. Evil at worst.
September 29th, 2008 at 7:24 pm
I’m in California and voting no on Prop 8. I’m not a religious person at all and I’d avoid any organization that tried to “preach” to me what my vote should be for any prop.
My daughter said it best when I explained it to her: “Well, duh.” If my nine year old “gets” that we have no right to step into the love lives of people, I don’t understand why full grown adults can’t.
September 29th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
It’s their church. If you don’t agree, don’t join.
I find the Mormon church one of the least plausible faiths I don’t hold, in part because of the particular manner in which they rely upon human revelation and judgment. If Church policy is to suppress dissent, that only communicates anxiety that their arguments aren’t particularly convincing.
But if you are a “Mormon” but you can’t agree with your church on fundamental stuff like this, what is going on? Are you sure you understand what they teach you and why? Are you sure you are conforming yourself to God’s mind, rather than the world’s? And if you understand the teaching, and you aren’t caught in false values, and you still don’t agree, then why are you still there? If you’re going to believe ‘em about Joseph Smith and the tablets, then why is Prop Whatever so tough to swallow?
If you don’t agree with them, don’t try to change them. Leave them. God did not make the world a wasteland, but a place for us to live. He made His world so you could understand it. Any religion has its revelations, but some are determined to integrate them into an understanding of God that is at least consistent with, if not completely grasped by, human reason.
But don’t leave looking for something comfy on Prop Whatever. No serious religion is going to confirm everything you want to believe. The point of religion is to reach something much greater than any of us. If you don’t encounter difficulties along the way, if you don’t find your values challenged or find yourself in opposition to the world (and no, “seeking social justice” with all your friends is not “opposing the world”), then I suspect your faith isn’t doing much for you to begin with.
September 29th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
I’m an Episcopalian in California. My family and I attended the marriage of our priest to her wife a couple of months ago and couldn’t be happier for them. I’ll be voting no on 8. I can’t imagine voting to invalidate someone else’s marriage.
September 29th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
I live in California and will be voting no on Prop 8. I think allowing the government to tell us who we can marry is actually a terrifying thought. And I haven’t seen any argument that explains clearly why gay people getting married has any effect on anyone other than that couple. I’d be interested to see someone try to explain that.
And for “nobody,” you yourself say that your religion should challenge you, but then you tell people to leave their faith if they don’t agree on Prop 8? As you said, no religion will conform to everything you believe, so aren’t there some issues on which you can agree to disagree?
September 29th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
@patatomic, I’m really glad you wrote in and shared your comment.
The issue around tax exemption is that the U.S. Government grants this as a privilege, not a right. Tax exemption is granted so long as a church doesn’t use the pulpit to voice political opinions.
More info about tax exemption for religions is here. Of note:
emphasis added
This really isn’t an issue in the United States, because the country as a whole is far more conservative than people are willing to admit. I posted this because it appears the Mormon church is in direct violation of the tax exemption privilege and absolutely nothing is being done. I’m certain other churches are in direct violation as well, and nothing is being done. It boils me britches that people acting in the name of good want to destroy the rights of others.
I agree with you that there may be other reasons that this particular person is being disciplined. That is of importance, but lesser than that it is clear that he does not possess the right as a Mormon to POLITICALLY disagree with his church without facing repercussions.
I have heard, anecdotally (is anybody willing to verify this?), that there are actual callings being issued for church members in California to go out and organize and solicit donations to support Prop. 8. The church members are given a calling that forces them to obfuscate that the church is officially doing anything and still campaign for Prop. 8. See here and here. It’s not pretty.
I find it odd that a church who throws out practicing homosexuals even cares about gay marriage. “They” aren’t a part of your flock. What do you care?
Just because a church does good, doesn’t mean it’s exempt from being called out when it does bad. That is the very epitome of hypocrisy.
I can’t imagine that this is an easy pill for the religious to swallow, Mormon or otherwise, regardless of the outcome.
September 29th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
I have a couple friends at work who are Mormon, and they both have mentioned that their parents were asked to make calls and go door to door to rally support for Prop 8 (I’m in San Diego). I don’t know if these were official callings, but they are definitely being asked by the Church to solicit donations for their cause. They were also told to give an amount over their usual tithes for Prop 8. Whether or not the Church will admit to asking this, I’m not sure.
September 29th, 2008 at 9:34 pm
Organizations don’t have First Amendment Free Speech rights. Individual CITIZENS do.
A church that tries to directly influence political candidates or legislation is violating the rules concerning tax-exemption. Period.
The USA is a constitutional representative republic, NOT a democracy. The “voice of the people” does NOT have the right to take away or limit the rights of other citizens. The U.S. Constitution PROTECTS the minority from a majority who wants to deny others rights.
Gay marriage doesn’t affect anyone but the couple, just as a straight marriage doesn’t affect anyone else. If you don’t agree with it, don’t marry someone of the same sex, and/or don’t attend a gay wedding. Seems simple enough. If your marriage, relationship, or life would be adversely affected by two strangers getting married, the problem is YOU, not them.
People who concern themselves with the sex lives or genitals of other consenting adults are PERVERTS.
September 30th, 2008 at 2:09 am
As an ex Jehovah’s Witness whose brother is gay and lives in California (I live in Washington State) I think this is just wrong. Whatever happened to a seperation of church and state?
Whatever happened to not judging one another, that God should do the judging not us? The way the Mormon church has treated a man who expressed his POLITICAL opinion is just dishonorable.
If you don’t like what someone else does, oh well, get over, it’s a free country. God gave us the right for free choice, free thinking, if he didn’t give us that option, think we’d be having this conversation, No! Disfellowshipping a man because he believes two people who love each other can get married is just the finest example of hypocrisy.
So much for human rights, so much for a religion keeping out of “state” affairs…maybe they should start paying taxes since they seem so inclined to stuck their noses in person and political affairs.
End rant.
Kim R
Seattle, Wa
Lover of the gays and straights and people who can’t pick a side and I still believe in God.
September 30th, 2008 at 6:43 am
Is there anything that non-Mormons can do to help? Email the LDS website? Email their server?
September 30th, 2008 at 7:57 am
@misterprecedent - Hear hear and AMEN!!!!
September 30th, 2008 at 8:20 am
I’m amazed at the amount of consideration banning gay marriage in CA is getting. It’s so frustrating to have to take these big steps backwards after we’ve made all these great efforts to move forward.
Also frustrating? http://www.iprotectmarriage.com the teen targeted website supporting ‘Yes on 8′.
Make sure to take the video quiz.
September 30th, 2008 at 11:45 am
As a former mormon, I’m disappointed, though not surprised, by mormon church getting involved again.
As for your question, it is exactly this complete control over how you think and vote that lead me to leave the church at a very young age. The church leadership can give all the lip-service to “free agency” they want, my experiences taught me that even when official disciplinary councils aren’t used, the trials in the church hallways, gossiping and “worrying for their testimony” that goes on with the membership is even more hurtful.
Dissenting opinions are never welcomed, and this has been the case from the getgo. Any one wondering, look a little into the Mormon church’s history regarding the Equal Rights Amendment.
I’d love to hear if Jon’s sources are correct and that actual callings are being given out regarding this Prop. (From memory, it was all very hush hush the last time we went through this. Though my non-citizen father went door to door, and I can’t imagine him doing that without someone telling him to).
September 30th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
I live in CA and I am voting no on Prop 8. I happen to come from a family who is still very active in the Mormon church, but I am lucky that I can discuss these issues in a very supportive and loving environment. I am not here to discredit the church, but merely give my opinion as this is an issue that I’ve followed.
During one of these discussions, my dad mentioned the concern of (with regards to legalizing same-sex marriages) the church/bishops being sued when refusing to perform or allow same-sex marriages. While this is only one of the points we discussed, this struck me as very interesting. I argued the point that the church, by its traditions, already has many “rules” set in place that questions who is considered worthy to enter the temple or to hold a calling, etc. The Mormon church campaigning for Prop 8, to me, seems to be fueling the fire and creating hostility.
Historically, the church has been a little behind the times if you look at the changes that have been made with church policy YEARS after United States law had been changed. (i.e. segregation laws, etc.) Obviously this is a bit different, but it still makes me question the motives.
September 30th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
One of the reasons I got my name removed from the church rolls was because I figured if there was a God worth worshipping, their church would be ahead of the civil rights curve. Not behind it.