Seriously you will love this site… it’s if Palin was ever president..and you can click and find some amusing things that would happen in the oval office…
I couldn’t stop laughing while simultaneously shuddering… I hope this never comes true.
I have to admit that I’m a little bummed about faydean’s non-commenter status…I would love to see what she had to say about that first video link! Love it!!
I’ve been feeling so overwhelmed (and yet completely obsessed) with all the reaction to the campaigning that I just wanted it to be over already. Last night we managed to flip the channel away from the talking heads to PBS and watched the Frontline documentary “The Choice 2008″ about the political histories of both presidential candidates. It was excellent and so refreshing in the face of the constant hysteria of the pundits on both sides. I had forgotten that both men are fundamentally politicians and have had to make some very difficult and controversial decisions to get where they are. To paraphrase Sarah Vowell (Assassination Vacation?), no presidential candidate is ever really like the rest of us because the very fact that someone wants to be president makes them very, very different from the average citizen. Honestly, I wish someone would press the mute button on the talking heads and make every potential voter watch this.
I don’t know what to make of all those videos, really.
Citizenship: if you are born to at least one US citizen and or within the US or a US territory, you are then a natural born citizen, no? Natural born meaning not naturalized and automatically a citizen at birth. I don’t understand why this is a question – both candidates have at least one parent who is a US citizen, so each could have been born on Mars and each would still be a citizen.
Palin: I quite enjoyed her speaking of the evils of wall street while there was a stock ticker on the right of the screen. The unintended irony of that was lovely.
McCain – what was he doing in a room full of immigrants and union members? That’s just really out of character (Unite Here being the service industry union – bartenders, housekeepers, etc)
I don’t understand the vote fraud argument, I don’t know that one has actually been made. Historically both sides have stooped to some really low levels at election time – much of that has involved fraud – dead people voting, actual voters being pressured into staying home while an imposter casts his her vote, etc. In the long run, though, the ID card thing just hurts the poor and the less well educated – because if you don’t drive, you generally don’t have a license and have little need of getting a state issued ID – in fact may not even know they exist. Those people lie on both sides of the party line…rural and urban poor, although I would think the urban poor – read more democratic – would probably be more likely to have ID than the rural poor. Now, not counting votes is another huge issue, but didn’t we see the largest ever case of that in 2000 in Florida? And wasn’t the whole shebang in favor of republicans?
Lakeville, MN is the picture of suburbia and urban sprawl. What makes my head hurt is that the girl in that interview was probably some Young Republican college student from one of the nearby liberal arts colleges in Northfield. Her pretention makes me want to kick something.
If you can argue this guy’s legal points, then feel free. My one question is…if you are a U.S. citizen then why not just prove it and therefore make this lawsuit moot? Instead, Obama’s lawyers (via the DNC) are fighting it. One must ask why bother for such a “simple” issue.
Your inability to see anything from the other side still astounds me. You must believe that the birth certificate you’ve now seen with your own eyes showing Obama as born in Hawaii is a fake. By that same token, is it not possible that the school records Berg claims to have are fake as well? I’m not claiming that I know the truth, but the fact is, neither do you.
I would fight tooth and nail against someone attempting to look into my private records. If I’ve shown you a birth certificate, there is no reason you should need to see anything else. For me, especially when running for an office such as the President, keeping everything private that I possibly can would most definitely be a priority for me. I in no way see his fighting this issue as an admission of guilt.
I’ve stayed away. I just didn’t want to disappoint you. LOL.
I see both sides to most everything, despite what you think.
The point here is this…there is a question raised, a legitimate question. As a citizen of this country, I respect the laws that dictate this process. It’s served us well for more than 250 years. If you read the Berg website carefully, you will see that the birth certificate in Hawaii was requested after the fact…after Obama’s birth. One can do that (think Angelina Jolie having her kids all over the globe) if you are a U.S. citizen and give birth off our shores. As long as his mother was a U.S. citizen, of which there is no argument, then he would have simply had dual citizenship. No probelm. But the wrench in this comes later, when Obama’s mother married a second time and Obama was adopted. It’s very clear what Indonesian law is regarding dual citizenship, marriage and adoption etc.
So, unless his Indonesian citizenship was revoked somehow…he was unadopted perhaps (not sure how you do that or if you can), then the only way Obama could have concrete U.S. citizenship is that he would have had to have been naturalized here. There are no documents of that occurring. Now, I’m not saying that all this is some conspiracy or whatever. Hell, he could have just not ever realized that his citizenship was not concrete or thought it an issue since he’s lived here most of his life. But “techincally” it would make him ineligible for the presidency. And that raises alot of concern. Him not being legal in office could pose much harm to this country…making his actions as our head of state basically non-binding etc. I wouldn’t want to get into that kind of thing. Would you?
If it is ever proven by someone, after he’s sworn in, that he is not a legal U.S. citizen it could be very bad. We’ve never had a situation like this before. Not saying that it’s good or bad or otherwise, just that I think he should make sure, in any way that he can, that everything is clean and good to go. And if all this was vetted before his candidancy, then why not just show those documents…or proof that they exist. This wouldn’t expose a privacy issue. No more than them telling us what medical procedures a President has done etc. They can always black out any privacy issue anyway.
Have you considered that this privacy thing is a ruse and that he doesn’t want to address this because if he did it might give some credence to it being true?
Guess not.
And btw, I considered McCain’s issue being born in the Panama Canal region a long time ago. I researched it and found out why it was ok and let it go. I would have an issue if it was with McCain too. In fact, I would have issues on EVERYTHING that I’ve raised issue with on Obama with McCain too. I’m a former Dem voting first time Republican this year. I’ve been on both sides. I’ve voted both parties in state elections. No matter how “one sided” you consider me, you would be wrong.
From the U.S. Department of State’s webpage on Dual Nationality:
“U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.”
HAHAHA Faydean were you born an idiot or did you just get naturalized as one? Please refer to the following link from the US Department of State regarding renunciation of US Citizenship. If you scroll down far enough to MINOR CHILDREN – you will see that no matter what Obama’s mother did as far as her own citizenship, marriages, etc. his citizenship could NOT be revoked – EVER! Once a citizen………….
Research done on an actual governmental website might be more accurate than wherever you’re getting your information. But I’d lay odds that your American History teacher would shrink off to the corner if he/she saw what a bumbling mess you made of the “citizenship” argument.
Keep grasping at those straws honey! That seems to be the only thing the Republican base has left!
I swear, if YOU read something you might LEARN something.
Here, let me break it down for you again:
1) It IS disputed, in Berg’s lawsuit, that Obama was NOT born in Hawaii, but in Kenya (a verified birth certificate has apparently been found and is part of the lawsuit…if you read it, which you didn’t). All they are asking for is for Obama to produce a LONG COPY, OFFICIAL U.S. birth certificate, which he has not. The latest in the suit, is that the DNC has filed for the halt of discovery until after the ruling on dismissal that was called for by Obama and the DNC…a stalling tactic thought to show that discovery might actually prove that Obama has something to worry about. Why else would he use that manuever? Otherwise, they’d be sure of the case being dismissed, proving no evidence under discovery rules. Simply put, all he has to do is show the birth certificate and be done with it. So far, he’s pushing it down to the wire…election day. Why?
2)Obama’s mother was a U.S. citizen, but his father was NOT. Under the laws of the time, which are posted on the same site you linked yourself, she would have had to be a U.S. citizen for 10 years prior to the birth, five of which had to have been after the age of 16. Therefore, her son could NOT have been a U.S. citizen if he was born in Kenya, thus making naturalization at some point necessary for him to be a U.S. citizenship. However, under the Constitution, one can only be eligible to run for the presidency if they are NATIVE born, which means on U.S. territory. Last time I checked, Kenya was not U.S. territory.
3) The “birth certificate” that was shown in that video linked by Jon was not a birth certificate, but a registry of birth, which is obtained typically by those who give birth outside of the U.S. Why it was issued I am not sure since Obama’s mother didn’t meet the law. I have not looked this up, so perhaps a registry is not legally the same as a birth certificate, therefore allowable even for those who don’t quality for U.S. citizenship. There is speculation (not saying this is true or not) that the registry is not legitimate.
4) Secondly, though it doesn’t make much difference if he was born in Kenya to begin with, if Obama was adopted in Indonesia (his name was changed and had to be under Indonesian law in order for him to attend public schools…look up Indonesian laws regarding citizenship from that time period if you so choose), U.S. citizenship would have been revoked under Indonesian law because they didn’t recognize dual citizenship. It is thought, that if this was the case, Obama’s U.S. citizenship would have still been recognized but there would have been paperwork etc. showing this. And, if Obama lived outside of Indonesia for five years with no filed intent to return it would have revoked his citizenship there anyway. So the Indonesian thing is questionable…but still legitimate in terms of where his citizenship stood as far as allegiance goes. He is listed as Muslim for several more years than he admits to.
5) I did not say a thing about HIM revoking his citizenship. I stated that his mother would under Indonesian law, though there is a U.S. law stating that citizenship is still recognized in those circumstances unless there are certain conditions. I don’t think she would have met those, though I’m not sure.
6) Berg must have more evidence of something being amiss than you realize Kari-Mel or his lawsuit wouldn’t have stood this long and it wouldn’t have been fought so vehemently by the DNC. The courts apparently think it has merit, at least as of now.
So, we’ll see….
My question to you is…why is it not legitimate to raise this concern? Do you not have any respect for the Constitution of this country? It’s served us well for every President until now. If it turns out that officially Obama is not a citizen, I suppose you think he should still be allowed to be president? Fuck all those before him who’ve met the law I suppose? It may turn out that he is fine and meets all the requirements. I hope so actually. Because, if not, and he’s sworn in then it will be a fucking mess of massive proportions. That would not shock me actually.
That’s funny Fay – that’s what my birth certificate looks like. But first, let me say that it’s a little difficult to have a certificate of live birth BEFORE you are born.
You stated: If you read the Berg website carefully, you will see that the birth certificate in Hawaii was requested after the fact…after Obama’s birth.
Of course his mom could have guessed when he’d be born if that would have made you happy, I suppose.
Back to this being what my birth certificate looks like. I lost my original (which, btw, I was adopted so my true original is part of a court record I am not privy to) complements of the military losing a box of our household goods and had to order a replacement copy. Given that I was born in the 60’s, and have moved and/or traveled a great deal, it’s not surprising that something could be lost. But given that you have no idea where his mother was born or lived or whether her citizenship is valid – you can’t prove one way or the other any of these accusations. And perhaps the Court has yet to address the lawsuit because they find it to be frivilous. I mean really, if there were an honest to God basis for them to believe otherwise, in the interest of the entire country don’t you think they would rule on it one way or another BEFORE we vote? As you said, it would be an enormous fiasco if they didn’t.
But be suspicious, by all means, because that is the only thing your side has going for it at this moment. You don’t speak of the issues, our economy, education, health care – you try to discredit, sling mud, create suspicions where none lie in order to distract. It’s scare tactics like this that cause people like us to get so riled up over the Republican insinuation that the rest of us are morons – typical of your new party. Aren’t you so proud to be associated with someone who can’t really discuss the WHAT – they have to talk about everything but!
Hell last night McCain spent more time rolling his eyes and laughing sarcastically under his breath than debating the issues. He may have had a moment or two in the sun, but when it came right down to it – he started the negative crap all over again and blew any positive opinion many people had of him. How proud you must be! I know I was completely appalled that someone vying for the highest political position in our country could be so blatantly disrespectful to his opponent AND the citizens of this fine country. Of course we are getting used to it – negative campaigning is the only thing McCain has done. He shows very little respect for anyone – especially those who don’t agree with him 100% on every issue.
Let it be said that I don’t necessarily agree with everything Obama says, but I find him to be more willing to address many of the issues that are affecting myself and my family on a daily basis. I might feel the same way about you if you weren’t so “democrats are the devil” in everything you say. Come out with something intelligent and not so easily disproven and we might start taking you seriously!
Well said, Kari-Mel. @Faydean, Kari-Mel is exactly right, if this were a true issue, there would be a decision prior to the election. And again, for every time that you say Obama is fighting the case due to his guilt or hiding something, I can come back with he is just protecting his privacy. Again, I don’t know for sure what his intentions are, but you MUST admit, that neither do you.
I didn’t say Democrats were the devil. If you will read what I write carefully, you will see that I have been a Democrat every since I gained the right to vote and have voted as such, all but the last election (because I hated both choices), until this one.
I guess I have said that the Democratic party isn’t what it once was…that it has gone too far left for me. I am tired of it being led so much by celebrities. I’m tired of it being tauted as the only platform that “cares”. There are many, many reasons I don’t ascribe to the party any longer. No, I don’t believe in redistribution of wealth.
And I have raised my concerns over Obama’s plans. Namely more government. More taxes. Socialized health care. These are things I am strongly against. Social stuff…I don’t really give much credence too on either side. I’m socially liberal, as I’ve said.
On this thing with Obama and his citizenship…it’s not so much Obama that I’m focusing on. As I stated, I’d be just as critical of McCain or anyone else. I am a Constitutionalist at my core. If there is a chance this presidential bid is not legal/constitutional, then it is a legitimate concern…either way. This was raised, as someone else mentioned earlier, regarding McCain. Courts ruled on it in fact. McCain showed documentation immediately. It was discussed and addressed in the Senate. Why would it not be for Obama?
It’s like the ACORN stuff and a bunch of other issues people raise about Obama…it always comes back to it not being fair. You’ve got to be kidding me. This is NOT a popularity contest here. This is electing the leader of this country. It has to have some checks and balances too you know. You can’t simply elect him and never question him, whether you are a member of his party, voted for him or just really think he’s great. I didn’t do that with Clinton. I voted for him. I liked him. I thought he just might need to be impeached! I did have a negative view of him and totally understood the harsh criticism of him. I supported Gore, but totally saw that he was not an ideal candidate. I’ve been totally critical of George Bush. I can give you examples from every presidency, whether they were even while I was alive and able to vote, where I found issues.
That is what this process is about. I’m not saying Obama is a “bad” man. I’m saying that he isn’t beyond being examined. I’ve examined McCain too. But why in the world would I waste those concerns here…you’d just agree with me, LOL. My point is that I keep wondering if you, as an Obama supporter, don’t ever go…”Ya know, I like him and I support him, but why doesn’t he give a better explanation of that?” I’ve been miffed over and over with McCain and his performance during this campaign. And, as I said before, I’ve resigned myself to the fact that we may indeed lose this fall (we meaning this party because he’s representing it and I’m voting that way) due to his fuck-ups.
Again, you won’t answer me on how you’d feel as an Obama supporter if indeed it turned out he hid something regarding his citizenship. It’s not like a politician has never lied before, I know (totally sarcastic there). You must be able to at least admit to yourself the chance exists that he might not be all you think he is…as any of them might not be. Being critical…having concerns…raising doubts and never flatly trusting just what they say, is what this country is built on.
And just so you know, I watched both men tonight speak at the Alfred E. Smith dinner. I was blown away by them BOTH. McCain gave one of the best speeches ever, I think. I’m not just saying that because I plan to vote for him. I thought he blew big time at the debates. He shines in a town hall meeting. And he really was extremely genuine and likeable at this dinner. As was Obama. He seemed more unsure of himself…a bit more nervous than he generally does. And you know what…it made him more likeable for me! It may be just his portrayal in the media, even the bits that love him, that make him seem somehow untrusting. Hell, it just may be his demeanor. I never thought Clinton sounded genuine and I liked the guy. These guys are groomed by whole groups of people trying to get them into office. If left to their own devices and out of such a forced environment…the political arena…I think both sides would see them much differently. I laughed easily and affectionately at Obama this evening. First time. I saw a real deep integrity and respect out of McCain for Obama, which made me feel bad that I have been rather harsh in my criticism of Obama.
But the fact is, you can’t choose them both. Maybe we should. Hell, maybe we should just axe the general election, leave it to the primary and let whoever got the most votes on one side be man number one and then the other be man number two…one of each, both sides. Why not!
I fervently believe that the White House should be one side and the Congress should be the other, for checks and balances. I don’t trust any of them. Even McCain…mostly because he’ll be directed by so many people, of which none of us will know. Hell, look at Bush, he’s becoming a socialist right before leaving office at the direction of Paulson and Bernake.
I’m convinced we are in a new world where up is down, black is white, and conservatives and democrats have completely lost their minds. BOTH of them, as parties, not just one. This country is in a shambles. I hope more than anything that this lawsuit is frivolous. I really, really do. If it isn’t…well, I will be taking a pill so I can sleep and wake up after the chaos is over. Who knows what world I will wake up in then? Hell, if you’d told me a month ago that we’d be buying into banks from our government, I would have started freaking. I haven’t had time to freak. I’m still not over us nearly falling into economic collapse…or even believing it since no one I know is suffering despite what I hear every day. It’s downright confusing, upsetting and just plain fucked up.
Both sides, now. Not just one. Both to blame.
I ask you kindly to seriously consider that I am not saying Democrats are evil. Too far left? Yes. But just for me. It might be just right for you. But hell, I’m voting in a party who is really too far right for me. Middle. I’d love some middle ground. Anyone else like some of that action? I know I surely would. My goal, to help really get an independent, moderate person in the election next go around that has a shot in hell of actually making it for the nomination. Anyone care to join me?
I feel for you. A lifelong Democrat, I made my change slowly over the mid-nineties. I’m a libertarian, not a member of the party, but libertarian in philosophy who votes Republican as the lesser of two evils.
I watch as you patiently and politely try to explain your views with respect, and then as you are treated with disrespect, and every logical fallacy is used against you.
The left is a like a religion. I don’t use the term “liberal” because I’m more truly liberal than most who pass under that term. The proper term is “socialist.” Socialism is like a religion, and the left of today, committed Democrats, adhere to a religion. Things are taken on faith, logic and facts are ignored, and blasphemers like yourself must be condemned. It’s impossible to simply discuss policy, which by the way, in most areas, there ain’t that big a difference between the two parties.
For what it’s worth, I got all your points about Obama’s citizenship, and I understand what you’re trying to say. I also caught that you hope there is no problem with his citizenship. These people arguing with you don’t believe you that you hope that. They think you’re making accusations when you’re just asking reasonable questions. It’s like challenging anything about a charismatic spiritual leader in front of his followers. To paraphrase a “Satan” of the left, “If you ain’t fully with ‘em, you’re agin’ ‘em.”
Perhaps I’ve grown cynical, but I never expect fairness or even civility when I argue with people from the left. I never get it. They don’t even consider it wrong to insult someone like you. You’re a bad person, you see. You must be shouted down, nothing you say can be trusted, nothing you post needs to be read carefully, and to engage in polite and reasoned discussion with you is capitulation.
I feel for you as you continue your journey. It gets worse. The arguments of the left can be stated succinctly in sound bites and bumper stickers, whereas the arguments of the right need explanation and often a knowledge of basic math, or history, or just logical thinking. This puts us at a disadvantage. “Bush’s tax cuts were for the rich,” is said easily, quickly and makes the point. It’s completely untrue, but it takes a paragraph and an understanding of how absolute numbers relate to percentages to refute it. After the calm explanation, you’re answered with something like, “You can’t possibly believe that,” or “Where’d you get that, from Rush Limbaugh?” or maybe just the left’s standby, the condescending laugh.
A wise man once said that when you encounter a double standard, what your’e really seeing is an unstated single standard. Just remember as you argue that the unstated single standard in operation is, “Democrats good, Republicans bad.”
@Dross – there has been little that is either polite or patient about how Faydean has presented or defended herself here……until this last post. She has made sarcastic and snide remarks, laughing at how “hysterical” the democrats are up until just now. Had she ever been all those things you claim, I don’t think she would have been spoken to in the manner that MOST of us have chosen.
I do see some of Fay’s points, and if you will note my final paragraph in the above post, you will, too, see that I don’t agree with everything Obama says. You find your lesser of two evils and I find mine. We differ and that is for the greater good. For if people didn’t have disagreements or reason to fully discuss things we would probably never fully understand how our system works, etc. However, spewing venom towards the “other side” doesn’t get anyone anywhere. Slinging mud doesn’t get us the answers to our questions – it just creates more and I find that to be one hell of a smoke screen – but I can see through it. Unfortunately, not everyone can.
I hold no respect for a candidate who doesn’t respect me enough to actually address the issues but choses to simply run a negative campaign. McCain hasn’t answered my questions – hell he hasn’t even addressed that they exist. He’s too busy digging up dirt, having “F”ailin incite crowds (but she’s starting to get her fair share of boo’s too, thankfully), snickering rudely because his opponent isn’t thinking like he is. That is not the example I want my country to portray to the rest of the world. We are better than that. Decorum – a word that should be used (and exercised) over the next 18 days in the Republican camp.
Being a war-hero doesn’t pre-qualify him for the presidency. Talk about what DOES and I will gladly listen. Don’t degrade my intelligence by being sarcastic and glib because you think I’m an idiot because I don’t follow the same political party you do. Don’t make light of the grave situation our country is in – it is not funny or joke-worthy – it is terrifying. Speak to me as you wish to be spoken to and a great conversation just might ensue!
I don’t like McCain as a candidate. I disagree with him on many, many issues. The reason I will be voting for him is that I think Obama will be worse for the country than McCain. I understand and respect that you see it differently.
You say: “I don’t respect a candidate who doesn’t respect me enough to actually address the issues but chooses to simply run a negative campaign.
I don’t like McCain as a candidate. That said, from what I can find, as of September 15, Obama ran more negative ads than McCain. I don’t know where it stands now, I can’t find that info. I understand you don’t like McCain, but his negative ads can’t be a major issue for you, if Obama has run at least a similar amount of negative ads. From my perspective, both candidates have outlined their positions on some things and weaseled on others. I can’t see that McCain has avoided issues any more than Obama.
You say: “McCain hasn’t answered my questions…”
What are your questions about McCain’s positions? I feel like I know his positions on the major issues, as I feel like I know Obama’s. Which positions are you lacking information for? Maybe I know McCain’s position, or maybe you have questions I haven’t considered.
You say: “…having F’ailin incite crowds…”
I don’t understand making fun in this way. I don’t mean to sound school marmish, but I don’t think it adds to anything. I found President Clinton to be despicable, but I never called him “Slick Willy” and I didn’t allow others do so without calling them on it. This isn’t a battle of good and evil, angels against demons, or smart people against idiots. It’s a disagreement about how best to govern the country. Reasonable people can disagree. As far as inciting crowds, there have been lots of nastiness in Obama’s crowds. “Bush is a Nazi,” has become common, and Sarah Palin has been called some of the worst names we have in English, like “cunt.” Not needed on either side. We don’t have to hate each other because we disagree on how much taxes should be, or on how to respond to terrorism.
You said: “…snickering rudely..”
I don’t like McCain as a candidate. I didn’t find his non verbal language to be rude. I saw his body language, and yes, I agree that he was trying to communicate to the viewers with his body language that he thought what Obama was saying to be laughable. I’ve seen that in every candidate in every debate I’ve every watched. Obama’s technique is a broad smile to himself, that I could characterize as condescending. Is this really a reason to like or dislike a candidate?
You say: “Decorum”
I say, “Back atcha’”
You say: “Being a war-hero doesn’t pre-qualify him for the presidency”
Nothing pre-qualifies anyone for the presidency. I don’t know anyone who is saying that being a war hero does that for McCain. Yes, people are trumpeting that aspect of McCain, but most people think that many years in the Senate is a qualification for President. I don’t hold being a career politician in that regard, but most think so. I seem to remember in the last election that John Kerry’s war record was trumpeted pretty loudly by the left. If John McCain’s resume doesn’t qualify him, what qualifies Obama, other than that you agree with him? Which at the end of the day is the only qualification that matters, that the most people want you to be President. By that most important qualification, at least 50 percent of the country thinks McCain is more qualified, and about 50 percent think Obama is more qualified. I’ll bet an even larger number think both are “qualified.” I don’t get your argument here, unless by qualified you mean, “Someone who agrees with me.”
You’ve said nothing to make me think you’re not intelligent, and if anything I’ve written seems sarcastic or glib, it was unintentional.
I, too, think the prospects are terrifying. It’s just a different candidate who terrifies me. Not because of his character, or because he doesn’t seem like a likable guy. For me, it’s because he espouses what I consider to be the most dehumanizing, dangerous, and unworkable philosophies ever attempted: socialism.
I appreciate your kindness. I knew someone had to see my point. Like McCain said last night, “someone has to be pulling for me.” LOL
I think the problem with the net and commenting, truthfully, is that the tone intended is hard to express. I’ve been very irritated yes and I’m sure it showed in my posts, just as it has with the Dems who are pissed. I, personally, have no problems with that until people start calling each other out on being stupid or lacking any intelligence just because they choose one side or another. And I use jokes and humor to try and lighten the mood, for lack of a better phrase. I mean, some of the stuff that has come out and happened is just beyond what any soap opera writer could come up with. Just a for instance, the Howard Stern video yesterday…how could anyone, from either side, not just be blown away by that. What the hell is wrong with people (and I mean those in that taped piece)?
I think the common thread among us all, Jon too, is that we are all VERY concerned about where this nation is headed. I mean, when you have a media monster that turns poor Joe the Plumber into enemy number one in less than 24 hours…delving into his personal history just because he addressed a candidate. Well, we are in trouble. And we all know it. It’s beyond the Iraq war. It’s beyond social issues. It’s about the threads of what make us a free-market democracy starting to unravel.
I suppose I may be guilty of suspecting Obama is more than he seems in terms of what danger he might be heading this country. But part of me has become so suspicious of the evils in this world (after 9/11) that I totally could see something…someone…coming along that would intentionally undo the greatness of this land. That may sound stupid to some, but I can’t help it. There have been plenty (are plenty) of “leaders” in the world that are not good…don’t have the best interests of anyone but themselves in mind. Why could this not happen to our nation? I think we are very naive to believe we are immune to such a thing.
And when I say all this, I don’t mean that he’s a Muslim etc. I mean he’s a socialist and wants to change the way this country is set up. We are basically the only country in the world left without socialism at the core of how we operate. I never thought it would ever be that we would lean that way. If we continue on this road, we will be Canada, England or France in a year or two. I like those places. I don’t want to LIVE there!!!
I honestly do think that everything that is happening is a symptom of an overall sickness of what this nation is suffering from…years and years of too much government assistance, an overwhelming growth in political correctness, a “I want it now and I deserve it” mentality, a lack of core family values, heck, even a lack of faith (she says as an atheist mind you). We are obssessed with material things, pop culture, having it all whether we deserve it or not. We haven’t suffered enough as a nation apparently to be able to hold a common cause together, as did our ancestors with world wars, civil wars, depressions etc.
Every time there is something that could unite us as a country…a bit of suffering, like now, we just throw money at it so no one has to learn to cope. That is not a good thing. Doing without, learning to cope and suffer a bit as you do it, brings humility. We are lacking humility as a nation.
The older I get, the more respect I have for those who’ve come before us…those that really did suffer and build this nation upon their strength and courage. The war heroes, like McCain, the farmers and coal miners and railroad workers. The guys who suffered by traveling this nation trying to establish themselves or gave their lives for it. I’m from the South. We are pretty humble around here, live pretty modestly. I grew up with people being thankful for the little they had and being faithful to their families and God. I didn’t appreciate it when I was younger. I do now and wish that much of the younger generation had a damn clue.
Entitlements…welfare…the government helping and doing for you (us), is not what built this country. It will be what undoes it. And that, is beyond sad to me. I don’t want help. I don’t need help. I want to be left alone. If that means I might suffer a bit…do without…have to learn how to regroup and change my life, work a bit harder or figure out a way just to survive until things get better…then that’s what I want. And I want other’s to feel that way, no matter what their lot in life. Believe me, they will be better for it no matter what someone else might think. Sometimes a “helping hand” does nothing but push a man further down or keep him right where he’s at!
Hell, watch the movie “Grapes of Wrath”…listen to Henry Fonda’s famous speech. THAT is what the country needs…not a new leader to take care of us!
For anyone interested, I think this article sums up the state of this country, at least in terms of this particular demographic. Again, just my perspective. Doesn’t have to be yours, but please don’t call me ignorant. I see the whole “help the little man” reasoning…I do. I just don’t think that is the way to go…government being the help anyway.
“At some point, it became obvious to these young people that the chief administrative officer of the federal government is ex officio responsible for loaning them grad-school money and overseeing their moms’ health-insurance plans. Jonah Goldberg didn’t call his book Liberal Fascism for nothing; they demand a totalitarian government because they suffer from totalitarian narcissism. Ask what your country can do for you? They’ve got a list worthy of Santa’s in-box.”
I do, REALLY, want some feedback on this article. I won’t say a word about what I think of it. I’d like to hear some instant reactions of those supporting Obama, just our of curiousity.
@dross, I don’t appreciate you putting words (or intentions) in my mouth. I’ve never responded to faydean with disrespect. The most I did was question the fact that she returned to comment, after posting that she would no longer comment on this site because she felt outnumbered. For you to say is the “left is like a religion” and all lefties are socialists is truly disrespectful. When you start out your post in that manner, it’s hard for me to take what you say seriously.
@faydean, because you asked…I read the article. As I’m sure you realize, it’s written with such an obvious bias that it’s hard to get past that to the true facts, if there are any. There’s nothing in that article that proves that it is Obama or his people that are attempting to “smear” Joe the plumber. Plus, I think smear is a really harsh word for just looking up facts. The article only has one quote from Biden but somehow turns this into an entire smear campaign from Dems and Liberals everywhere. Furthermore, I really don’t believe that Obama is Marxist because he feels that taxes should be higher for people who make more. To take a few words out of the entire context of a discussion and then use them to do your own “smearing” is ridiculously unfair. So, my “instant reaction” to this article is that it is so obviously right leaning that I don’t take much from it.
hahahahaha!
ah, the joy of politics. and i thought i was good at talking out of both sides of my mouth.
http://palinaspresident.com/
Seriously you will love this site… it’s if Palin was ever president..and you can click and find some amusing things that would happen in the oval office…
I couldn’t stop laughing while simultaneously shuddering… I hope this never comes true.
I have to admit that I’m a little bummed about faydean’s non-commenter status…I would love to see what she had to say about that first video link! Love it!!
Great video links, Jon. Very interesting and informative.
Here is Keith Olbermann’s “Special Comment” tonight on the anger/hate stirred up at McCain-Palin rallies:
http://tinyurl.com/3ramwn
and a great article on the same topic:
http://tinyurl.com/3qac2x
I’ve been feeling so overwhelmed (and yet completely obsessed) with all the reaction to the campaigning that I just wanted it to be over already. Last night we managed to flip the channel away from the talking heads to PBS and watched the Frontline documentary “The Choice 2008″ about the political histories of both presidential candidates. It was excellent and so refreshing in the face of the constant hysteria of the pundits on both sides. I had forgotten that both men are fundamentally politicians and have had to make some very difficult and controversial decisions to get where they are. To paraphrase Sarah Vowell (Assassination Vacation?), no presidential candidate is ever really like the rest of us because the very fact that someone wants to be president makes them very, very different from the average citizen. Honestly, I wish someone would press the mute button on the talking heads and make every potential voter watch this.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/choice2008/
I don’t know what to make of all those videos, really.
Citizenship: if you are born to at least one US citizen and or within the US or a US territory, you are then a natural born citizen, no? Natural born meaning not naturalized and automatically a citizen at birth. I don’t understand why this is a question – both candidates have at least one parent who is a US citizen, so each could have been born on Mars and each would still be a citizen.
Palin: I quite enjoyed her speaking of the evils of wall street while there was a stock ticker on the right of the screen. The unintended irony of that was lovely.
McCain – what was he doing in a room full of immigrants and union members? That’s just really out of character (Unite Here being the service industry union – bartenders, housekeepers, etc)
I don’t understand the vote fraud argument, I don’t know that one has actually been made. Historically both sides have stooped to some really low levels at election time – much of that has involved fraud – dead people voting, actual voters being pressured into staying home while an imposter casts his her vote, etc. In the long run, though, the ID card thing just hurts the poor and the less well educated – because if you don’t drive, you generally don’t have a license and have little need of getting a state issued ID – in fact may not even know they exist. Those people lie on both sides of the party line…rural and urban poor, although I would think the urban poor – read more democratic – would probably be more likely to have ID than the rural poor. Now, not counting votes is another huge issue, but didn’t we see the largest ever case of that in 2000 in Florida? And wasn’t the whole shebang in favor of republicans?
I dunno….is it November yet?
Lakeville, MN is the picture of suburbia and urban sprawl. What makes my head hurt is that the girl in that interview was probably some Young Republican college student from one of the nearby liberal arts colleges in Northfield. Her pretention makes me want to kick something.
Here ya go Mmc!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MWqIwXMBWQ
Lawsuit is still on going. There’s a website. If you care, look it up.
This guy is a Democrat. So take it up with him.
If you can argue this guy’s legal points, then feel free. My one question is…if you are a U.S. citizen then why not just prove it and therefore make this lawsuit moot? Instead, Obama’s lawyers (via the DNC) are fighting it. One must ask why bother for such a “simple” issue.
http://www.obamacrimes.com/index.php/component/content/article/1-main/28-phil-j-berg-files-amended-complaint-in-berg-v-obama
Oh, and BTW, McCain was born on a U.S. military base, which automatically grants him U.S. citizenship..
So you couldn’t stay away, faydean?
Your inability to see anything from the other side still astounds me. You must believe that the birth certificate you’ve now seen with your own eyes showing Obama as born in Hawaii is a fake. By that same token, is it not possible that the school records Berg claims to have are fake as well? I’m not claiming that I know the truth, but the fact is, neither do you.
I would fight tooth and nail against someone attempting to look into my private records. If I’ve shown you a birth certificate, there is no reason you should need to see anything else. For me, especially when running for an office such as the President, keeping everything private that I possibly can would most definitely be a priority for me. I in no way see his fighting this issue as an admission of guilt.
I’ve stayed away. I just didn’t want to disappoint you. LOL.
I see both sides to most everything, despite what you think.
The point here is this…there is a question raised, a legitimate question. As a citizen of this country, I respect the laws that dictate this process. It’s served us well for more than 250 years. If you read the Berg website carefully, you will see that the birth certificate in Hawaii was requested after the fact…after Obama’s birth. One can do that (think Angelina Jolie having her kids all over the globe) if you are a U.S. citizen and give birth off our shores. As long as his mother was a U.S. citizen, of which there is no argument, then he would have simply had dual citizenship. No probelm. But the wrench in this comes later, when Obama’s mother married a second time and Obama was adopted. It’s very clear what Indonesian law is regarding dual citizenship, marriage and adoption etc.
So, unless his Indonesian citizenship was revoked somehow…he was unadopted perhaps (not sure how you do that or if you can), then the only way Obama could have concrete U.S. citizenship is that he would have had to have been naturalized here. There are no documents of that occurring. Now, I’m not saying that all this is some conspiracy or whatever. Hell, he could have just not ever realized that his citizenship was not concrete or thought it an issue since he’s lived here most of his life. But “techincally” it would make him ineligible for the presidency. And that raises alot of concern. Him not being legal in office could pose much harm to this country…making his actions as our head of state basically non-binding etc. I wouldn’t want to get into that kind of thing. Would you?
If it is ever proven by someone, after he’s sworn in, that he is not a legal U.S. citizen it could be very bad. We’ve never had a situation like this before. Not saying that it’s good or bad or otherwise, just that I think he should make sure, in any way that he can, that everything is clean and good to go. And if all this was vetted before his candidancy, then why not just show those documents…or proof that they exist. This wouldn’t expose a privacy issue. No more than them telling us what medical procedures a President has done etc. They can always black out any privacy issue anyway.
Have you considered that this privacy thing is a ruse and that he doesn’t want to address this because if he did it might give some credence to it being true?
Guess not.
And btw, I considered McCain’s issue being born in the Panama Canal region a long time ago. I researched it and found out why it was ok and let it go. I would have an issue if it was with McCain too. In fact, I would have issues on EVERYTHING that I’ve raised issue with on Obama with McCain too. I’m a former Dem voting first time Republican this year. I’ve been on both sides. I’ve voted both parties in state elections. No matter how “one sided” you consider me, you would be wrong.
From the U.S. Department of State’s webpage on Dual Nationality:
“U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.”
Oh, and here’s a very interesting video to consider.
Keep in mind this is from a VERY liberal Howard Stern, who I’ve listened to for years and years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyvqhdllXgU&eurl=http://tizona.wordpress.com/for-us-voters/
very, very interesting for sure
HAHAHA Faydean were you born an idiot or did you just get naturalized as one? Please refer to the following link from the US Department of State regarding renunciation of US Citizenship. If you scroll down far enough to MINOR CHILDREN – you will see that no matter what Obama’s mother did as far as her own citizenship, marriages, etc. his citizenship could NOT be revoked – EVER! Once a citizen………….
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html
Research done on an actual governmental website might be more accurate than wherever you’re getting your information. But I’d lay odds that your American History teacher would shrink off to the corner if he/she saw what a bumbling mess you made of the “citizenship” argument.
Keep grasping at those straws honey! That seems to be the only thing the Republican base has left!
I swear, if YOU read something you might LEARN something.
Here, let me break it down for you again:
1) It IS disputed, in Berg’s lawsuit, that Obama was NOT born in Hawaii, but in Kenya (a verified birth certificate has apparently been found and is part of the lawsuit…if you read it, which you didn’t). All they are asking for is for Obama to produce a LONG COPY, OFFICIAL U.S. birth certificate, which he has not. The latest in the suit, is that the DNC has filed for the halt of discovery until after the ruling on dismissal that was called for by Obama and the DNC…a stalling tactic thought to show that discovery might actually prove that Obama has something to worry about. Why else would he use that manuever? Otherwise, they’d be sure of the case being dismissed, proving no evidence under discovery rules. Simply put, all he has to do is show the birth certificate and be done with it. So far, he’s pushing it down to the wire…election day. Why?
2)Obama’s mother was a U.S. citizen, but his father was NOT. Under the laws of the time, which are posted on the same site you linked yourself, she would have had to be a U.S. citizen for 10 years prior to the birth, five of which had to have been after the age of 16. Therefore, her son could NOT have been a U.S. citizen if he was born in Kenya, thus making naturalization at some point necessary for him to be a U.S. citizenship. However, under the Constitution, one can only be eligible to run for the presidency if they are NATIVE born, which means on U.S. territory. Last time I checked, Kenya was not U.S. territory.
3) The “birth certificate” that was shown in that video linked by Jon was not a birth certificate, but a registry of birth, which is obtained typically by those who give birth outside of the U.S. Why it was issued I am not sure since Obama’s mother didn’t meet the law. I have not looked this up, so perhaps a registry is not legally the same as a birth certificate, therefore allowable even for those who don’t quality for U.S. citizenship. There is speculation (not saying this is true or not) that the registry is not legitimate.
4) Secondly, though it doesn’t make much difference if he was born in Kenya to begin with, if Obama was adopted in Indonesia (his name was changed and had to be under Indonesian law in order for him to attend public schools…look up Indonesian laws regarding citizenship from that time period if you so choose), U.S. citizenship would have been revoked under Indonesian law because they didn’t recognize dual citizenship. It is thought, that if this was the case, Obama’s U.S. citizenship would have still been recognized but there would have been paperwork etc. showing this. And, if Obama lived outside of Indonesia for five years with no filed intent to return it would have revoked his citizenship there anyway. So the Indonesian thing is questionable…but still legitimate in terms of where his citizenship stood as far as allegiance goes. He is listed as Muslim for several more years than he admits to.
5) I did not say a thing about HIM revoking his citizenship. I stated that his mother would under Indonesian law, though there is a U.S. law stating that citizenship is still recognized in those circumstances unless there are certain conditions. I don’t think she would have met those, though I’m not sure.
6) Berg must have more evidence of something being amiss than you realize Kari-Mel or his lawsuit wouldn’t have stood this long and it wouldn’t have been fought so vehemently by the DNC. The courts apparently think it has merit, at least as of now.
So, we’ll see….
My question to you is…why is it not legitimate to raise this concern? Do you not have any respect for the Constitution of this country? It’s served us well for every President until now. If it turns out that officially Obama is not a citizen, I suppose you think he should still be allowed to be president? Fuck all those before him who’ve met the law I suppose? It may turn out that he is fine and meets all the requirements. I hope so actually. Because, if not, and he’s sworn in then it will be a fucking mess of massive proportions. That would not shock me actually.
That’s funny Fay – that’s what my birth certificate looks like. But first, let me say that it’s a little difficult to have a certificate of live birth BEFORE you are born.
You stated: If you read the Berg website carefully, you will see that the birth certificate in Hawaii was requested after the fact…after Obama’s birth.
Of course his mom could have guessed when he’d be born if that would have made you happy, I suppose.
Back to this being what my birth certificate looks like. I lost my original (which, btw, I was adopted so my true original is part of a court record I am not privy to) complements of the military losing a box of our household goods and had to order a replacement copy. Given that I was born in the 60’s, and have moved and/or traveled a great deal, it’s not surprising that something could be lost. But given that you have no idea where his mother was born or lived or whether her citizenship is valid – you can’t prove one way or the other any of these accusations. And perhaps the Court has yet to address the lawsuit because they find it to be frivilous. I mean really, if there were an honest to God basis for them to believe otherwise, in the interest of the entire country don’t you think they would rule on it one way or another BEFORE we vote? As you said, it would be an enormous fiasco if they didn’t.
But be suspicious, by all means, because that is the only thing your side has going for it at this moment. You don’t speak of the issues, our economy, education, health care – you try to discredit, sling mud, create suspicions where none lie in order to distract. It’s scare tactics like this that cause people like us to get so riled up over the Republican insinuation that the rest of us are morons – typical of your new party. Aren’t you so proud to be associated with someone who can’t really discuss the WHAT – they have to talk about everything but!
Hell last night McCain spent more time rolling his eyes and laughing sarcastically under his breath than debating the issues. He may have had a moment or two in the sun, but when it came right down to it – he started the negative crap all over again and blew any positive opinion many people had of him. How proud you must be! I know I was completely appalled that someone vying for the highest political position in our country could be so blatantly disrespectful to his opponent AND the citizens of this fine country. Of course we are getting used to it – negative campaigning is the only thing McCain has done. He shows very little respect for anyone – especially those who don’t agree with him 100% on every issue.
Let it be said that I don’t necessarily agree with everything Obama says, but I find him to be more willing to address many of the issues that are affecting myself and my family on a daily basis. I might feel the same way about you if you weren’t so “democrats are the devil” in everything you say. Come out with something intelligent and not so easily disproven and we might start taking you seriously!
Well said, Kari-Mel. @Faydean, Kari-Mel is exactly right, if this were a true issue, there would be a decision prior to the election. And again, for every time that you say Obama is fighting the case due to his guilt or hiding something, I can come back with he is just protecting his privacy. Again, I don’t know for sure what his intentions are, but you MUST admit, that neither do you.
Kari-Mel…
I didn’t say Democrats were the devil. If you will read what I write carefully, you will see that I have been a Democrat every since I gained the right to vote and have voted as such, all but the last election (because I hated both choices), until this one.
I guess I have said that the Democratic party isn’t what it once was…that it has gone too far left for me. I am tired of it being led so much by celebrities. I’m tired of it being tauted as the only platform that “cares”. There are many, many reasons I don’t ascribe to the party any longer. No, I don’t believe in redistribution of wealth.
And I have raised my concerns over Obama’s plans. Namely more government. More taxes. Socialized health care. These are things I am strongly against. Social stuff…I don’t really give much credence too on either side. I’m socially liberal, as I’ve said.
On this thing with Obama and his citizenship…it’s not so much Obama that I’m focusing on. As I stated, I’d be just as critical of McCain or anyone else. I am a Constitutionalist at my core. If there is a chance this presidential bid is not legal/constitutional, then it is a legitimate concern…either way. This was raised, as someone else mentioned earlier, regarding McCain. Courts ruled on it in fact. McCain showed documentation immediately. It was discussed and addressed in the Senate. Why would it not be for Obama?
It’s like the ACORN stuff and a bunch of other issues people raise about Obama…it always comes back to it not being fair. You’ve got to be kidding me. This is NOT a popularity contest here. This is electing the leader of this country. It has to have some checks and balances too you know. You can’t simply elect him and never question him, whether you are a member of his party, voted for him or just really think he’s great. I didn’t do that with Clinton. I voted for him. I liked him. I thought he just might need to be impeached! I did have a negative view of him and totally understood the harsh criticism of him. I supported Gore, but totally saw that he was not an ideal candidate. I’ve been totally critical of George Bush. I can give you examples from every presidency, whether they were even while I was alive and able to vote, where I found issues.
That is what this process is about. I’m not saying Obama is a “bad” man. I’m saying that he isn’t beyond being examined. I’ve examined McCain too. But why in the world would I waste those concerns here…you’d just agree with me, LOL. My point is that I keep wondering if you, as an Obama supporter, don’t ever go…”Ya know, I like him and I support him, but why doesn’t he give a better explanation of that?” I’ve been miffed over and over with McCain and his performance during this campaign. And, as I said before, I’ve resigned myself to the fact that we may indeed lose this fall (we meaning this party because he’s representing it and I’m voting that way) due to his fuck-ups.
Again, you won’t answer me on how you’d feel as an Obama supporter if indeed it turned out he hid something regarding his citizenship. It’s not like a politician has never lied before, I know (totally sarcastic there). You must be able to at least admit to yourself the chance exists that he might not be all you think he is…as any of them might not be. Being critical…having concerns…raising doubts and never flatly trusting just what they say, is what this country is built on.
And just so you know, I watched both men tonight speak at the Alfred E. Smith dinner. I was blown away by them BOTH. McCain gave one of the best speeches ever, I think. I’m not just saying that because I plan to vote for him. I thought he blew big time at the debates. He shines in a town hall meeting. And he really was extremely genuine and likeable at this dinner. As was Obama. He seemed more unsure of himself…a bit more nervous than he generally does. And you know what…it made him more likeable for me! It may be just his portrayal in the media, even the bits that love him, that make him seem somehow untrusting. Hell, it just may be his demeanor. I never thought Clinton sounded genuine and I liked the guy. These guys are groomed by whole groups of people trying to get them into office. If left to their own devices and out of such a forced environment…the political arena…I think both sides would see them much differently. I laughed easily and affectionately at Obama this evening. First time. I saw a real deep integrity and respect out of McCain for Obama, which made me feel bad that I have been rather harsh in my criticism of Obama.
But the fact is, you can’t choose them both. Maybe we should. Hell, maybe we should just axe the general election, leave it to the primary and let whoever got the most votes on one side be man number one and then the other be man number two…one of each, both sides. Why not!
I fervently believe that the White House should be one side and the Congress should be the other, for checks and balances. I don’t trust any of them. Even McCain…mostly because he’ll be directed by so many people, of which none of us will know. Hell, look at Bush, he’s becoming a socialist right before leaving office at the direction of Paulson and Bernake.
I’m convinced we are in a new world where up is down, black is white, and conservatives and democrats have completely lost their minds. BOTH of them, as parties, not just one. This country is in a shambles. I hope more than anything that this lawsuit is frivolous. I really, really do. If it isn’t…well, I will be taking a pill so I can sleep and wake up after the chaos is over. Who knows what world I will wake up in then? Hell, if you’d told me a month ago that we’d be buying into banks from our government, I would have started freaking. I haven’t had time to freak. I’m still not over us nearly falling into economic collapse…or even believing it since no one I know is suffering despite what I hear every day. It’s downright confusing, upsetting and just plain fucked up.
Both sides, now. Not just one. Both to blame.
I ask you kindly to seriously consider that I am not saying Democrats are evil. Too far left? Yes. But just for me. It might be just right for you. But hell, I’m voting in a party who is really too far right for me. Middle. I’d love some middle ground. Anyone else like some of that action? I know I surely would. My goal, to help really get an independent, moderate person in the election next go around that has a shot in hell of actually making it for the nomination. Anyone care to join me?
faydean,
I feel for you. A lifelong Democrat, I made my change slowly over the mid-nineties. I’m a libertarian, not a member of the party, but libertarian in philosophy who votes Republican as the lesser of two evils.
I watch as you patiently and politely try to explain your views with respect, and then as you are treated with disrespect, and every logical fallacy is used against you.
The left is a like a religion. I don’t use the term “liberal” because I’m more truly liberal than most who pass under that term. The proper term is “socialist.” Socialism is like a religion, and the left of today, committed Democrats, adhere to a religion. Things are taken on faith, logic and facts are ignored, and blasphemers like yourself must be condemned. It’s impossible to simply discuss policy, which by the way, in most areas, there ain’t that big a difference between the two parties.
For what it’s worth, I got all your points about Obama’s citizenship, and I understand what you’re trying to say. I also caught that you hope there is no problem with his citizenship. These people arguing with you don’t believe you that you hope that. They think you’re making accusations when you’re just asking reasonable questions. It’s like challenging anything about a charismatic spiritual leader in front of his followers. To paraphrase a “Satan” of the left, “If you ain’t fully with ‘em, you’re agin’ ‘em.”
Perhaps I’ve grown cynical, but I never expect fairness or even civility when I argue with people from the left. I never get it. They don’t even consider it wrong to insult someone like you. You’re a bad person, you see. You must be shouted down, nothing you say can be trusted, nothing you post needs to be read carefully, and to engage in polite and reasoned discussion with you is capitulation.
I feel for you as you continue your journey. It gets worse. The arguments of the left can be stated succinctly in sound bites and bumper stickers, whereas the arguments of the right need explanation and often a knowledge of basic math, or history, or just logical thinking. This puts us at a disadvantage. “Bush’s tax cuts were for the rich,” is said easily, quickly and makes the point. It’s completely untrue, but it takes a paragraph and an understanding of how absolute numbers relate to percentages to refute it. After the calm explanation, you’re answered with something like, “You can’t possibly believe that,” or “Where’d you get that, from Rush Limbaugh?” or maybe just the left’s standby, the condescending laugh.
A wise man once said that when you encounter a double standard, what your’e really seeing is an unstated single standard. Just remember as you argue that the unstated single standard in operation is, “Democrats good, Republicans bad.”
Keep up the fight, I enjoy reading your comments.
@Dross – there has been little that is either polite or patient about how Faydean has presented or defended herself here……until this last post. She has made sarcastic and snide remarks, laughing at how “hysterical” the democrats are up until just now. Had she ever been all those things you claim, I don’t think she would have been spoken to in the manner that MOST of us have chosen.
I do see some of Fay’s points, and if you will note my final paragraph in the above post, you will, too, see that I don’t agree with everything Obama says. You find your lesser of two evils and I find mine. We differ and that is for the greater good. For if people didn’t have disagreements or reason to fully discuss things we would probably never fully understand how our system works, etc. However, spewing venom towards the “other side” doesn’t get anyone anywhere. Slinging mud doesn’t get us the answers to our questions – it just creates more and I find that to be one hell of a smoke screen – but I can see through it. Unfortunately, not everyone can.
I hold no respect for a candidate who doesn’t respect me enough to actually address the issues but choses to simply run a negative campaign. McCain hasn’t answered my questions – hell he hasn’t even addressed that they exist. He’s too busy digging up dirt, having “F”ailin incite crowds (but she’s starting to get her fair share of boo’s too, thankfully), snickering rudely because his opponent isn’t thinking like he is. That is not the example I want my country to portray to the rest of the world. We are better than that. Decorum – a word that should be used (and exercised) over the next 18 days in the Republican camp.
Being a war-hero doesn’t pre-qualify him for the presidency. Talk about what DOES and I will gladly listen. Don’t degrade my intelligence by being sarcastic and glib because you think I’m an idiot because I don’t follow the same political party you do. Don’t make light of the grave situation our country is in – it is not funny or joke-worthy – it is terrifying. Speak to me as you wish to be spoken to and a great conversation just might ensue!
Kari-Mel,
I don’t like McCain as a candidate. I disagree with him on many, many issues. The reason I will be voting for him is that I think Obama will be worse for the country than McCain. I understand and respect that you see it differently.
You say: “I don’t respect a candidate who doesn’t respect me enough to actually address the issues but chooses to simply run a negative campaign.
I don’t like McCain as a candidate. That said, from what I can find, as of September 15, Obama ran more negative ads than McCain. I don’t know where it stands now, I can’t find that info. I understand you don’t like McCain, but his negative ads can’t be a major issue for you, if Obama has run at least a similar amount of negative ads. From my perspective, both candidates have outlined their positions on some things and weaseled on others. I can’t see that McCain has avoided issues any more than Obama.
You say: “McCain hasn’t answered my questions…”
What are your questions about McCain’s positions? I feel like I know his positions on the major issues, as I feel like I know Obama’s. Which positions are you lacking information for? Maybe I know McCain’s position, or maybe you have questions I haven’t considered.
You say: “…having F’ailin incite crowds…”
I don’t understand making fun in this way. I don’t mean to sound school marmish, but I don’t think it adds to anything. I found President Clinton to be despicable, but I never called him “Slick Willy” and I didn’t allow others do so without calling them on it. This isn’t a battle of good and evil, angels against demons, or smart people against idiots. It’s a disagreement about how best to govern the country. Reasonable people can disagree. As far as inciting crowds, there have been lots of nastiness in Obama’s crowds. “Bush is a Nazi,” has become common, and Sarah Palin has been called some of the worst names we have in English, like “cunt.” Not needed on either side. We don’t have to hate each other because we disagree on how much taxes should be, or on how to respond to terrorism.
You said: “…snickering rudely..”
I don’t like McCain as a candidate. I didn’t find his non verbal language to be rude. I saw his body language, and yes, I agree that he was trying to communicate to the viewers with his body language that he thought what Obama was saying to be laughable. I’ve seen that in every candidate in every debate I’ve every watched. Obama’s technique is a broad smile to himself, that I could characterize as condescending. Is this really a reason to like or dislike a candidate?
You say: “Decorum”
I say, “Back atcha’”
You say: “Being a war-hero doesn’t pre-qualify him for the presidency”
Nothing pre-qualifies anyone for the presidency. I don’t know anyone who is saying that being a war hero does that for McCain. Yes, people are trumpeting that aspect of McCain, but most people think that many years in the Senate is a qualification for President. I don’t hold being a career politician in that regard, but most think so. I seem to remember in the last election that John Kerry’s war record was trumpeted pretty loudly by the left. If John McCain’s resume doesn’t qualify him, what qualifies Obama, other than that you agree with him? Which at the end of the day is the only qualification that matters, that the most people want you to be President. By that most important qualification, at least 50 percent of the country thinks McCain is more qualified, and about 50 percent think Obama is more qualified. I’ll bet an even larger number think both are “qualified.” I don’t get your argument here, unless by qualified you mean, “Someone who agrees with me.”
You’ve said nothing to make me think you’re not intelligent, and if anything I’ve written seems sarcastic or glib, it was unintentional.
I, too, think the prospects are terrifying. It’s just a different candidate who terrifies me. Not because of his character, or because he doesn’t seem like a likable guy. For me, it’s because he espouses what I consider to be the most dehumanizing, dangerous, and unworkable philosophies ever attempted: socialism.
Dross,
I appreciate your kindness. I knew someone had to see my point. Like McCain said last night, “someone has to be pulling for me.” LOL
I think the problem with the net and commenting, truthfully, is that the tone intended is hard to express. I’ve been very irritated yes and I’m sure it showed in my posts, just as it has with the Dems who are pissed. I, personally, have no problems with that until people start calling each other out on being stupid or lacking any intelligence just because they choose one side or another. And I use jokes and humor to try and lighten the mood, for lack of a better phrase. I mean, some of the stuff that has come out and happened is just beyond what any soap opera writer could come up with. Just a for instance, the Howard Stern video yesterday…how could anyone, from either side, not just be blown away by that. What the hell is wrong with people (and I mean those in that taped piece)?
I think the common thread among us all, Jon too, is that we are all VERY concerned about where this nation is headed. I mean, when you have a media monster that turns poor Joe the Plumber into enemy number one in less than 24 hours…delving into his personal history just because he addressed a candidate. Well, we are in trouble. And we all know it. It’s beyond the Iraq war. It’s beyond social issues. It’s about the threads of what make us a free-market democracy starting to unravel.
I suppose I may be guilty of suspecting Obama is more than he seems in terms of what danger he might be heading this country. But part of me has become so suspicious of the evils in this world (after 9/11) that I totally could see something…someone…coming along that would intentionally undo the greatness of this land. That may sound stupid to some, but I can’t help it. There have been plenty (are plenty) of “leaders” in the world that are not good…don’t have the best interests of anyone but themselves in mind. Why could this not happen to our nation? I think we are very naive to believe we are immune to such a thing.
And when I say all this, I don’t mean that he’s a Muslim etc. I mean he’s a socialist and wants to change the way this country is set up. We are basically the only country in the world left without socialism at the core of how we operate. I never thought it would ever be that we would lean that way. If we continue on this road, we will be Canada, England or France in a year or two. I like those places. I don’t want to LIVE there!!!
I honestly do think that everything that is happening is a symptom of an overall sickness of what this nation is suffering from…years and years of too much government assistance, an overwhelming growth in political correctness, a “I want it now and I deserve it” mentality, a lack of core family values, heck, even a lack of faith (she says as an atheist mind you). We are obssessed with material things, pop culture, having it all whether we deserve it or not. We haven’t suffered enough as a nation apparently to be able to hold a common cause together, as did our ancestors with world wars, civil wars, depressions etc.
Every time there is something that could unite us as a country…a bit of suffering, like now, we just throw money at it so no one has to learn to cope. That is not a good thing. Doing without, learning to cope and suffer a bit as you do it, brings humility. We are lacking humility as a nation.
The older I get, the more respect I have for those who’ve come before us…those that really did suffer and build this nation upon their strength and courage. The war heroes, like McCain, the farmers and coal miners and railroad workers. The guys who suffered by traveling this nation trying to establish themselves or gave their lives for it. I’m from the South. We are pretty humble around here, live pretty modestly. I grew up with people being thankful for the little they had and being faithful to their families and God. I didn’t appreciate it when I was younger. I do now and wish that much of the younger generation had a damn clue.
Entitlements…welfare…the government helping and doing for you (us), is not what built this country. It will be what undoes it. And that, is beyond sad to me. I don’t want help. I don’t need help. I want to be left alone. If that means I might suffer a bit…do without…have to learn how to regroup and change my life, work a bit harder or figure out a way just to survive until things get better…then that’s what I want. And I want other’s to feel that way, no matter what their lot in life. Believe me, they will be better for it no matter what someone else might think. Sometimes a “helping hand” does nothing but push a man further down or keep him right where he’s at!
Hell, watch the movie “Grapes of Wrath”…listen to Henry Fonda’s famous speech. THAT is what the country needs…not a new leader to take care of us!
For anyone interested, I think this article sums up the state of this country, at least in terms of this particular demographic. Again, just my perspective. Doesn’t have to be yours, but please don’t call me ignorant. I see the whole “help the little man” reasoning…I do. I just don’t think that is the way to go…government being the help anyway.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NGIzN2ZmNzk4YzY3MDg1OTE4NDBmYTQ0NWViZGYyOTM=
My favorite line:
“At some point, it became obvious to these young people that the chief administrative officer of the federal government is ex officio responsible for loaning them grad-school money and overseeing their moms’ health-insurance plans. Jonah Goldberg didn’t call his book Liberal Fascism for nothing; they demand a totalitarian government because they suffer from totalitarian narcissism. Ask what your country can do for you? They’ve got a list worthy of Santa’s in-box.”
And lastly this morning…
I do, REALLY, want some feedback on this article. I won’t say a word about what I think of it. I’d like to hear some instant reactions of those supporting Obama, just our of curiousity.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MWNmYzZhZTZmZGM0ZGYyNmY1OTU5OGI3Yzc1ZTc2Nzk=
@dross, I don’t appreciate you putting words (or intentions) in my mouth. I’ve never responded to faydean with disrespect. The most I did was question the fact that she returned to comment, after posting that she would no longer comment on this site because she felt outnumbered. For you to say is the “left is like a religion” and all lefties are socialists is truly disrespectful. When you start out your post in that manner, it’s hard for me to take what you say seriously.
@faydean, because you asked…I read the article. As I’m sure you realize, it’s written with such an obvious bias that it’s hard to get past that to the true facts, if there are any. There’s nothing in that article that proves that it is Obama or his people that are attempting to “smear” Joe the plumber. Plus, I think smear is a really harsh word for just looking up facts. The article only has one quote from Biden but somehow turns this into an entire smear campaign from Dems and Liberals everywhere. Furthermore, I really don’t believe that Obama is Marxist because he feels that taxes should be higher for people who make more. To take a few words out of the entire context of a discussion and then use them to do your own “smearing” is ridiculously unfair. So, my “instant reaction” to this article is that it is so obviously right leaning that I don’t take much from it.