21 Responses to “More Dirt”

1. faydean says:

   Oh please Jon.

   As far as I’m concerned, they didn’t waterboard them enough. All I have to think about is the sound of the thuds of the people hitting the ground after jumping out of the towers to weigh the severity of the “torture”.

   May 4, 2009 at 8:40 am
2. ck says:

   I don’t understand how this can be boiled down to the Democrats vs the GOP. Democrats didn’t okay torture?

   click here commenter posted link to philly.com editorial

   May 4, 2009 at 10:16 am
   • blurb says:

     I was referring to how the Democratic party is handed a continued series of wins if they handle the torture issue correctly.

     The link you share has a few fallacies, the first is that torture should ever be used “to save lives”.

     You can cling to your belief about torture (that it’s a valid way to operate), but you are in the minority. People who want to be proud of our country don’t want us to be just like those we fight. People who want a better place to live don’t think like fools and depraved lunatics. People who want a better country want to be better than those we fight. Yes, that is going to cost lives. But we retain a moral high ground that has been lost.

     http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2302-2005Jan11.html

     Of note:

     Or listen to Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm, and who was sent by the Pentagon in 2003 — long before Abu Ghraib — to assess interrogations in Iraq. Aside from its immorality and its illegality, says Herrington, torture is simply “not a good way to get information.” In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no “stress methods” at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the “batting average” might be lower: “perhaps six out of ten.” And if you beat up the remaining four? “They’ll just tell you anything to get you to stop.”

     Worse, you’ll have the other side effects of torture. It “endangers our soldiers on the battlefield by encouraging reciprocity.” It does “damage to our country’s image” and undermines our credibility in Iraq. That, in the long run, outweighs any theoretical benefit. Herrington’s confidential Pentagon report, which he won’t discuss but which was leaked to The Post a month ago, goes farther. In that document, he warned that members of an elite military and CIA task force were abusing detainees in Iraq, that their activities could be “making gratuitous enemies” and that prisoner abuse “is counterproductive to the Coalition’s efforts to win the cooperation of the Iraqi citizenry.” Far from rescuing Americans, in other words, the use of “special methods” might help explain why the war is going so badly.

     That was in 2005. We’re still in Iraq. Still in Afghanistan. Torture didn’t get us anywhere. Also: torture is illegal.

     May 4, 2009 at 1:04 pm
     • faydean says:

       [deleted]

       Wasn’t talking to you.

       May 4, 2009 at 1:53 pm
       • faydean says:

         [deleted]

         Still not talking to you. Don’t butt in. Don’t be rude.

         May 4, 2009 at 8:06 pm
         • faydean says:

           Not being rude Jon.

           Reminding you of the way you set this up months ago when politics was a daily discussion on your blog. When you liked the “back and forth”.

           As much as I like you, you never cease to amaze me in your hard headedness.

           Poor, poor Heather, lol.

           If I was rude on this one, I sort of apologize…but this whole torture thing grates me. Political debating aside, national security and such is something I don’t think there can be much wiggle room on.

           Ok, I’m too sick with a summer cold, the death of yet another person close to me in my life and rain for days to worry with your lack of interest in discussing this.

           I’ll give you a) baby on board b)bathroom remodel c) cd ripping (thanks for giving my hubs the idea. not) d) swine flu mania

           May 5, 2009 at 8:04 am
3. Lilly says:

   If it means saving ONE American life — waterboard the shit out of those bastards. In fact, do whatever you must to get the necessary information.

   Every terrorist on the planet has been high-fiving each other and laughing their asses off at the Obama/kumbia method of interrogation.

   Seriously.

   May 4, 2009 at 11:32 am
   • faydean says:

     I say go all Jack Bauer on their asses.

     May 4, 2009 at 11:41 am
     • Lilly says:

       Jack Bauer for President!

       May 4, 2009 at 12:30 pm
4. Lilly says:

   “That was in 2005. We’re still in Iraq. Still in Afghanistan. Torture didn’t get us anywhere. Also: torture is illegal”

   So is terrorism and killing innocent Americans. I know that nobody is going to change anybody’s mind here — but, this topic makes my blood boil. It’s a very simplistic process. If ONE American life can be saved (let alone thousands) we need to do whatever we must to gain the information. American lives are the most important lives when you’re an American, living in America and are dealing with terrorists who have targeted us for decades.

   May 4, 2009 at 4:16 pm
5. Lilly says:

   …oh, and your statement that torture hasn’t gotten us anywhere is wrong, Jon. Had they not waterboarded Khalid Sheik Mohammad, he never would have devulged the information about the 9/11 like L.A. attack that was thwarted.

   May 4, 2009 at 4:23 pm
   • blurb says:

     Lilly. It’s a simplistic process because you seem to deeply desire it to be so. If we corrupt ourselves to “save lives” what do we have that is worth saving? If we lose our dignity; become so venal and desperate that we resemble the dictators we fight, what is our country then? Not one “conservative” has responded to my repeated asking of this question. Not one. They blather on and on about how wrong I am and how my ideas will be the downfall of the country. I would submit that we have already fallen, Lilly, already fallen. I’m not buying your Old Testament/Koran/Quran ideal of an eye for an eye.

     Not one of the out of touch circus freaks fronting as the True Voice of the GOP is going to save this country. That you place your ideals in a fictional TV character says more about the state of conservative denial in the United States than my little website ever could.

     Lilly, I don’t have much faith that you’ll read this with an open mind, but I highly recommend this piece.

     Of note:

     “I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq. The large majority of suicide bombings in Iraq are still carried out by these foreigners. They are also involved in most of the attacks on U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq. It’s no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001. How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me — unless you don’t count American soldiers as Americans.”

     Finally, to refute your notion that I am wrong about torture by quoting a General who was in Iraq and can speak more to the point than perhaps either you or I are able:

     “In my opinion, a rapport-based interrogation that recognizes respect and dignity, and having very well-trained interrogators, is the basis by which you develop intelligence rapidly and increase the validity of that intelligence,” General Miller said in a briefing for reporters. “It is very similar to what you would see civilian law enforcement authorities use.”

     You can read the entire piece here.

     I am aware of the “ethical” argument for torture; that the information we might gain to save lives outweighs the immorality of treating another human being as something less. I don’t buy it. I don’t think we ever need to “go to the dark side“.

     Until the conservatives awaken from their fever dream and allow for intellectual dissidence as well as critical thinking, conservative discourse will continue in a morass of jingoism and phony nationalism, much like your vaunted Jack Bauer.

     May 4, 2009 at 10:15 pm
6. thehorsecoach says:

   I love your web site, Jon, and I’ve never commented before, but your photography is beautiful.

   As for the debate at hand, I’m a conservative on most issues, though not on this one. Actually, I see it as less a political debate than one of basic humanity.

   I’m not interested in protecting the rights of terrorists. I am, however, interested in protecting the morality and integrity of our law enforcement and military organizations.

   In order for torture to exist, two parties have to be involved: the one inflicting and the one receiving. As to the one inflicting, we have to understand that we have created someone who is capable of causing extreme pain to another human being, who is capable of watching someone suffer for hours on end. I’m not comfortable with that.

   It’s the same as my feelings on the death penalty. I’m not advocating murder, rape or other heinous crimes, but rather concerned that someone–a supposedly innocent someone–has to flip the switch or administer the injection. Someone has to intentionally commit what our legal system says is justifiable homicide.

   The people who torture others in the name of national security or administer lethal injections will return to their families, their friends. To say that such acts don’t have a profound impact on the psyche of the individual is ignorant.

   Of course, I realize the issue is far from black and white, and I don’t really like the suggestion that conservatives are incapable of intellectual dissidence or critical thinking. I would say that ignorance exists on both sides.

   Thanks for bring up the topic.

   May 5, 2009 at 1:53 pm
   • blurb says:

     Thanks for sharing your views. It’s extremely rare that a less extreme conservative comments (there have been a few over the years, but you are outweighed by the extremists) and I appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment.

     May 5, 2009 at 2:55 pm
7. Danger says:

   American lives are not more valuable than other lives nor are they the only lives that matter. But still, we’ll save more American lives by not adding fuel to the fire of hatred. To say nothing of the moral and ethical considerations, from a purely pragmatic point of view, our abuses inspire them to fight as much as their terrorism has inspired us to fight. It’s a lose-lose proposition. To make an analogy, certainly Israel would suffer fewer suicide bombings if it chose negotiation and cooperation rather than military repression.

   May 5, 2009 at 10:54 pm
   • blurb says:

     Perfectly said!

     And thanks for taking the time.

     May 6, 2009 at 8:25 pm
8. Lilly says:

   My conscience doesn’t bother me with the kind of torture we performed on the prisoners at Gitmo. Hooking up electricity to the genitals. Pulling fingernails out one by one. Dental work with no anesthesia. Breaking bones one at a time. Skinning one inch at a time. THAT”S TORTURE!
   Pouring water up their noses rates as a minor annoyance.

   Please think about the americans who were burning to death as they jumped (please…one was my husband). Had any of you witnessed that or smelled their burning flesh I don’t think you’d have an issue with waterboarding.

   These terrorists aren’t 15 year olds caught having a cigarrette in the boys room. They want to kill you and they will not give up. They cannot be bargained with. They cannot be reasoned with. They don’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And they absolutely will not stop until they are dead OR until you’re dead. I want every ounce of information they have and would love our interrogators to use real torture on them, get every ounce of info they have, kill them and send them home to their relatives. Postage due.

   May 8, 2009 at 2:39 pm
   • Lilly says:

     I meant to say *Please think about the Americans who were burning to death as they jumped from the towers on 9/11*.

     May 8, 2009 at 2:44 pm
9. Danger says:

   Hi Lilly,

   I’m very sorry to hear about your husband. That’s a loss that can never be replaced.

   I, too, was in New York on 9/11. I worked a couple blocks from the WTC (Broad and Beaver) and was on my way on the train when the attacks occurred. When we were finally allowed to return to work a couple weeks later, we smelled that smell of burning flesh for quite a while.

   And, yet, I very much disagree with your characterization of terrorists, what constitutes torture, and what will prevent another attack.

   Again, I’m sorry for your loss. And I believe fervently that if we look at the root causes of terrorism and address those, we’ll be better able to stop the vicious cycle of revenge that both sides are caught up in and that never turns out well.

   David

   May 9, 2009 at 10:13 am
10. Lilly says:

    Thank you for your kind words David.

    I guess we will have to agree to disagree. When dealing with sane human beings, I believe that nothing can be solved without first dealing with the underlying cause. However, as I said before — these monsters are at the opposite end of the sane spectrum. They are insane, irrational, cowardly, monsters. Americans have a price tag on their heads and have for a gazillion years — during both democratic and republican administrations. The only way to stop them is by staying ahead of their attacks and dealing with them as viciously as they want to deal with us.

    By the way — I’m interested in what you believe the root cause of their maniacal hatred of all things American is?

    May 9, 2009 at 7:22 pm
11. Danger says:

    I’ll agree to disagree. And since you expressed interest in knowing what I think motivates anti-American sentiment, I think that needs to be explored, but I’m sure that U.S. foreign policy has played a significant part.

    Here’s a quote by Jimmy Carter: “We sent Marines into Lebanon and you only have to go to Lebanon, to Syria or to Jordan to witness first-hand the intense hatred among many people for the United States because we bombed and shelled and unmercifully killed totally innocent villagers — women and children and farmers and housewives — in those villages around Beirut. . . . As a result of that . . . we became kind of a Satan in the minds of those who are deeply resentful.”

    And those behind the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center wrote to the New York Times: “We declare our responsibility for the explosion on the mentioned building. This action was done in response for the American political, economical, and military support to Israel the state of terrorism and to the rest of the dictator countries in the region.”

    May 9, 2009 at 10:57 pm