Are Men Better Than Society Says?
June 19th, 2009
Before Marlo was born I taped an episode of Momversation where dads talk about getting the “raw end of the deal” when it comes to parenting. I really enjoyed the conversation and I think that the producers deserve a medal for wading through all of the footage. My videos were close to 20 minutes of yapping. I definitely think they pulled out the best bits.
It was great talking with Danny Evans, Chris Loesch and Marcus Jennings. Great perspectives and conversation, lads! Happy Father’s Day!
So, blurbomat.com readers, do you think dads get the raw end of the deal? o
Tags: dadversation, dudeversation, frightening gestures, momversation, video
Jon, I literally laughed out loud about the “here’s a logical thought path we can take” thing.
I can’t tell you how many times over the past six years I’ve found myself trying to employ lengthy dissertations driven by logic and reason as a means to negotiate a resolution with a baby/toddler/child.
In my defense: it sometimes works with my son … but my daughter’s not having any of it.
But I couldn’t agree more that the special mother/child bond gives mommy the ability to bypass all that nonsense.
Hope things are going well with the new arrival.
Jon, I really, really, REALLY love the “new generation” of dads. When I was growing up, both my mother and father were trapped in their respective designated “roles,” and both parents AND their two children suffered for it. The bitch of it was, at the time, more moms (including mine, who was a nurse) worked outside the home AND worked inside the home than ’50s TV would have us believe (see the excellent book, “The Way We Never Were” by Stephanie Coontz), and more dads felt alienated and ill-equipped to interact with their kids in a positive way. EVERYONE got the “fuzzy end of the lollipop,” as the saying goes.
Under the best of circumstances, early parenting is, by biological imperative, going to be mostly a mom/baby dyad, and dads are going to be kinda SOL in that regard… until they figure out a way to lactate, of course. But you have so obviously been keenly and importantly involved in Leta’s life (and will no doubt be in Marlo’s as well) in a way that almost none of “our” fathers have been in ours.
You have very lucky children, and you and Heather are very lucky parents.
Love this Dadversation (just like I loved the previous one) but is there any way for you to notify the Momversation peeps that commenting appears to be disabled? I see the link, but no commenting box…
I’ve sent an email… it looks like the comments were turned off for that post.
Thanks!
And thanks for participating in another great Dadversation. Y’all are so fun!
I didn’t watch the video yet and I’m biased because I have a “born to be a father” kind of a boyfriend, but I definitely think some men get the raw end of the deal. There’s crappy mothers & good mothers, and there’s crappy fathers & good fathers.
I’m due in November and I couldn’t possibly ask for a better father-to-be. He insists on talking to my stomach every night because, “It’s not fair, you’re attached to it all the time, it’s not going to recognize me at all” and he’s beyond bummed that he’ll be working on a serious deadline up until March. He’s reconsidering his career path & we’re hoping to move, just so that he can be around more.
One of my therapists once told me that, for women, getting married & having/raising children was instinct. But for men, it’s an act of will. I firmly believe that. I think those that don’t have the will or desire and giving a bad name to those that do. Because those that do, who make that leap, are AMAZING.
Thanks for bringing this up, Jon. I’m not a parent, nor a wife, so I don’t have a macro view on how society feels about dads. I can only speak from personal experience.
I was lucky enough to grow up in a house with two loving, stable parents, and I can tell you that, while my mom was always more in tune with my moods and my health than anyone, my relationship with my dad was such an essential part of forming my identity as a woman, strange as that may sound. I know exactly what I should expect from a man and what qualifies a guy as a d-bag. It was Dad’s Superman model that made me wait (by choice!) to go on a date until I was 20. So while Mom can still pick up an entire range of emotions in a “Hi” over the phone, Dad gave me model on which I judge character.
So while I can’t say whether you’re getting a raw deal from society, I can say that it ultimately doesn’t matter as long as your girls can believe in you. You’ll keep your Superman status with them long after you stop being able to fly them around like airplanes.
Yes, I do think we get a bad rap. It’s assumed that the dad doesn’t parent as well as the mom and everything trickles down from there. One thing that stands out to me is what the gentleman said about his wife going on a trip. My wife is currently on a 3 day trip with 8 girlfriends. How will all of us men survive? There will be blood! Chaos! Poop on the walls! Severed limbs! Or, we’ll just do what we normally do and take care of our children.
Now, is there any validity to these preconceived notions? Yes. I know dads who have the summer off and still hire daycare for their kids because they either can’t or won’t care for them. But honestly, that has become the exception whereas 50 years ago it would be the norm.
My friends and family know the truth about this and they were quick to figure out that I’m half of this team instead of 1/3rds. It’s more the big societal view that gets me revved up. TV and movies, ads, they’re still calling us the big dumb workers, and it’s enough to make me want to pull off my son’s arm and beat them with it. Um… I mean…
I’d flip the question. There are definitely a lot of a-hole dads who do nothing. So in that regard, sure, those of us who are responsible get the short end of the stick.
But I think the bigger problem is that by continually portraying men as big stupid incompetent oafs, they’re saying it’s normal. And that’s not acceptable. It creates a situation where mom’s don’t feel empowered to demand more, because they sort of think that this stereotype is acceptable. Sure maybe they could have gotten one of those father’s who’s can take care of the kids and be an equal partner in housework, but their husband isn’t one and there’s nothing they can do about it.
We should demand they change the do-nothing husband to being a negative stereotype, rather than a norm.
I’ve not watched the video yet, but here goes:
I don’t think dads get a bad rep as a general rule. I think there’s enough crazy moms on the news that could easily give mothers a bad name ~ if we chose to see motherhood as a whole in that way.
In my house, I’m frequently frustrated because of my husband’s “I only have to sustain life” mentality when he’s watching Ellis by himself. I wish he played more of an active role in her life ~ on his own, without being asked ~ instead of always viewing me as the primary caregiver (which, come on, let’s face it, I am) and taking a backseat to that. Do I have too high of expectations to want more out of him than the absolute necessities of food & clean diapers when I’m not around, or to take the initiative to fix her dinner?
That being said, he adores Ellis, doesn’t refer to watching her as “babysitting”, and he’s really great with her. He even offered to bring her into work with him for a few hours yesterday to give my mom a break from babysitting duties. And man, does Ellis love her daddy! Which, honestly, I sometimes get a teensy resentful of because DOESN’T SHE REALIZE I’M THE ONE DOING ALL THE WORK?
And that being said, if I thought really hard about it, would I want my situation to change? Do I want more help? YES. But I wouldn’t trade knowing my daughter inside & out for the world.
I prefer the laid back straight forward dadversations to the momversations (some of the mom members come across as patronizing, self-important and cliquish).
For some reason, the Dads seem more laid back and not as concerned about their image or celebrity.
Do dads get the raw end of the deal? I guess in some respects they do and that was touched on in the video, which I enjoyed very much. However – men are much less likely to be attacked for working outside the home too much or for missing out on milestones. And when they do want to stay home or spend some quality time with their child (or sometimes even when they *gasp* change a diaper) they are praised to high heaven for doing something that moms are just expected to do.
When my four-year-old was an infant my husband would half-jokingly talk about wanting to be a stay at home dad and during those conversations I realized that as much as I enjoyed the job I had at the time, I would be so incredibly jealous if he got to spend the whole day with Anna. Now I’m home with two children and I am so grateful that on his days off my husband has no problem taking the girls out and being very involved in their lives.
I think he’d still rather be home with them full time.
This discussion is wonderful!
I think that kids generally less than 5 years, especially girl kids, don’t get the “direct to the point explanation” way that most Dads deal with stuff. Doesn’t make it bad… just real. Moms tend to cut to the chase with no explanation… because it’s right and no explanation is needed. (Moms are gifted that way.) With that being said, the Dad, IMO, is the one who sets the stage for what the girl kid should expect from the men in their lives.
Please Dads, never underestimate those “direct explanations” even though they may appear to fall on deaf ears at the time they are given. When you talk to your daughter she listens more than you will ever know. Never underestimate your influence. They absolutely care about what you think, and what you think of them will carry with them all of the days of their life.
Jon & Heather… The Lo is awesome! Congratulations!
You bring up an interesting point, Nantz. I wish I could remember where I read it, but I recall being blown away by a psychologist’s postulating that one’s opposite-sex parent establishes one’s goals, and one’s same-sex parent establishes one’s method for achieving those goals.
The more I thought about this notion, the more it rocked my tiny little world, I must say.
I don’t know if it’s a “universal truth,” but I can’t help but keep the proposition in mind when observing family relationships’ effects on individuals ambitions/behaviors. I’ve found it VERY enlightening and revealing, and (mostly) very accurate.
This is a terribly interesting discussion, as a woman with a 10 month old son and a husband. I think what you guys say is right in your context – you guys are enlightened fathers, whose fatherhood is very much in the public eye and subject to public scrutiny, through your own work or through the work of your wives and partners.
There are still plenty of men out there, however, who approach fatherhood with the same hands-off attitude demonstrated by their fathers because they know no other way. It doesn’t occur to them that they needn’t work full time, it doesn’t occur to them that a mother needs nurturing, that childrearing is not necessarily instinctive to women. They don’t see or notice the physical labour involved in raising a baby.
I don’t know whether or not dads get the raw end of the deal. What I do know is that my mother tears up when she sees a bloke in a supermarket carrying a baby in a sling. I also know that I am torn between thanking my husband when he helps out with the baby and just accepting it as routine. I want his help to be routine, but it’s been uphill learning for him.
I’m not sure exactly what society as a whole says about men as parents. Is our society so uniform as that anymore?
I agree with those above who say that dads are over-praised for doing things that mothers are simply expected to do. But then, positive encouragement is the best way to change behavior isn’t it? And while I see plenty of dads who are taking a greater role in the upbringing of their offspring, I also still see plenty who’ve never changed a nappy.
On a personal level I hate the conflicting expectations that are placed on me. I’m the main provider of income in our family. This was a choice that my wife and I made together despite the fact that Claire has a much greater earning potential than I. We own a small business. a bike store, and we’re the sole employees. I have an extensive background in retail management and am a trained bicycle mechanic, Claire’s an engineer. This means I work the bulk of the hours to provide for all of us.
But I’m still being constantly pressured to spend more time at home, to leave later for work and come home sooner. Hell, I haven’t opened the shop on time in months. I love my daughter with a passion I didn’t think I was capable of; I want to spend as much time as I can with her. When I’m home she has my undivided attention whenever I’m not helping with the housework. But we still have to eat, to pay our rent and hopefully save something for the future. We don’t have a guaranteed income and in these uncertain economic times it’s even more tenuous. It often feels like I’m being condemned for worrying about this, for working hard to make sure we’re all provided for.
So yes, in a sense I feel that as a dad in the role I’m in now I’m getting a raw deal. I’m expected to risk our financial well being to spend more time with my daughter, despite the fact that the time I spend away from her is also an act of caring for her.
On a more positive note I feel that we live in a time when all roles are being questioned. We are now free to choose for ourselves just exactly how we go about things. Society as a whole has loosened it’s stranglehold on our behavior just enough to make this a very exciting time to be alive and to be a parent.
Thank you for this discussion Jon. This is the sort of thing that gives me hope for the internet.
Coelecanth, you VERY eloquently outlined why feminism is as relevant and crucial for men as it is for women. I think your post should be required reading for EVERYONE.
Great post, Jon. I have friends who do not involve their husbands in the day to day activities – bedtime, baths, etc and when they want to leave their infant to go for a glass a wine with their friends, they’re asking their mother-in-laws or mothers to come over? The old skool way of moms doing all the work is still quite rampant.
Depending on who you end up with and how much *their* mother was responsible for…the onus is kind of on us new moms to help “reprogram” as we see fit! Mind you, that includes realizing that dad’s might not have the “instincts” to do everything “right” (aka how we want it done haha)….
I think generationally speaking, men are doing much better these days. And as can be expected the media, and our culture as a result (sadly) is just slow to take up on the fact. Every dad my age is more involved and genuinely interested in raising their kids than their fathers were.
In my personal experience, my husband has been an outstanding father. He works insane hours because he is managing his own startup but he still works hard to be involved in every aspect of our son’s life. Besides that, we live far from all of our family so we only have each other to depend on 24-7 for the care of our little guy. It’s just the way of life for us.
By the way, you all should read this nice article on today’s New York Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/21/fashion/21generationb.html
Best line from the article:
“So maybe being a parent isn’t totally thankless, maybe it’s just like the elections in Zimbabwe: the returns come in very slowly.”
Good stuff.
Jon, first, congratulations. Far more important than any discussion about societal views, your new daughter is a beautiful baby. I am sure she’s brought a heap of joy to your household.
I loved the video. The discussion that has commenced is phenomenal.
My perspective is this: when “society” is talking about men “stepping up” and not taking much of a role, I don’t think society is talking about the men on this video. Certainly nobody is referring to any father who spends exorbitant time at home with his children, actively engaged and serving as an integral part of their lives.
And I suspect, neither is “society” referring to fathers who work very hard for a living, bringing home those hard earned paychecks and doing all he can to provide for his family.
Those are the men who are the exceptions to the rule. I applaud all of them. I applaud all of you.
Some men ARE better than the ones “society” is describing when it talks about a big problem.
It isn’t just fatherhood that brings men into the limelight for scrutiny. It’s marriage, too. When my husband and I are both working full time, he comes home from work and is essentially DONE for the day. My other responsibilities are just starting. In this way, we as a society have not moved out of the dark ages yet. We accept that women can earn honest wages and respect them for creating a two-income household when necessary. But we still seem to expect them to carry the same weight at home that they likely would if they were traditional housewives of stay-at-home-mothers.
I’d love to hear a follow up on momversation from these fine gentlemen on how the division of responsibility looks within their households and how they feel about it. Do you take out the trash, feed the baby(ies) four times per week, mow the lawn or shovel snow, work, and that’s it? Or are things divided more evenly? Do you think the division should be fairly equal? Is it so in your households?
That’s two questions. Are Men Better Than Society Says and do you think men get the raw end of the deal. I do think men are better than society says but I do not think men get the raw end of the deal. I only have my own experience to go by, but my ex-husband had it made. He was a school bus driver and a farmer. He left the house at 6:30 am and was home by 9:00 a.m. Then out again at 2:00 pm and home by 4:30 pm. In between he would call me at my full time plus job to tell me to wake him at 1:30 from his nap. And don’t even get me started on his periods of unemployment where I still had to take my sons to the babysitter while he slept in and did NOTHING all day. I would get home and the first words out of his mouth were, “What are we going to eat? I haven’t had anything to eat all day.” Lord, I could go on and on, but I won’t. I could write volumes about how he didn’t have the raw end of the deal. I know not all men are like that, thank goodness. Happy Father’s Day.
Yes! I do think men get a raw deal. However, there are still men out there that are not pulling their weight, but I would guess that most men that are engaged in this conversation are pulling their weight above and beyond what their fathers were doing. Many men have evolved and are amazing caregivers. I have an 11 year old son and he is growing up to be such a kind, respectful boy and although I know I have to take some of the credit, my husband has really done most of the hard work with him in terms of steering him in the right direction and staying on him to be the best he can be. I give lots of love, hugs, and kisses as does my husband…but he gets the much softer side from me. It’s not a case of good cop, bad cop…it’s more of a united front of love and discipline. Off track, but yes, men get a raw deal…there are so many wonderful fathers out there today.
Happy Father’s Day!